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Post by A60stock on Aug 17, 2017 15:37:01 GMT
COuld anyone tell me where the locations of any bull head stretches to track are still in place?
In particular on the metropolitan, Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 17:57:03 GMT
Too many to list
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North End
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Post by North End on Aug 17, 2017 18:35:17 GMT
Bullhead rail is on around 70% of the LU still and if a re rail is required due to a defect then its still replaced with Bullhead 70% seems a little high. Thinking of the Northern Line, there is little bullhead plain line in the open sections now. Still quite a lot of points, and plain line in complex areas like Golders Green. Much more bullhead left in tunnels, but still 70% seems high. This is just observation though - nothing scientific!
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 17, 2017 18:36:57 GMT
I certainly remember rerailing Bullhead around the Marylebone area 12 or so years ago. Queen's Park is still mostly bullhead.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 20:12:00 GMT
Is that why bogies on trains are developing cracks and falling apart due to bullhead rail?
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North End
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Post by North End on Aug 17, 2017 20:22:34 GMT
Is that why bogies on trains are developing cracks and falling apart due to bullhead rail? I'd say track on LU is a lot better now than it was in the late 90s and early 2000s. I remember when the Central Line first went to 100kph there was still a lot of old track about, and the ride was extremely rough in places, Northolt to South Ruislip was one such section, Debden to Epping another, and also Roding Valley to Chigwell. Today is a lot smoother, but not as fun! There's a short rough section just leaving Archway northbound, the rest of the run to East Finchley tunnel mouth is also I think still bullhead, but mostly re-railed within the last decade or so. May not be long for this world though, as it looks like new rails are dumped there (I haven't looked closely though, so they could be conductor rails). Kennington to Waterloo nb is also largely bullhead and rough in places - but a little less rough since the rail grinder has been working there, much of this section will normally see the train doing 50 mph. I must say I much prefer bullhead track - the noise makes it easier to judge speed without having to look at a speedometer. You don't get the same sensation on long welded rails, although the Mill Hill branch has jointed flat bottom rails mainly and that does almost as good a job. One last point, the smell of creosote emanating from wooden sleepers is lovely on a summer's evening too, especially with the cab door open...
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Post by A60stock on Aug 18, 2017 0:11:49 GMT
I should have been more specific, I mean long sections of rail in the open where there are large stretches of bullhead, I find it amazing that over 50 percent is bullhead as I rarely hear the "clickety clack" sound when using the met or picc.
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North End
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Post by North End on Aug 18, 2017 0:51:17 GMT
I should have been more specific, I mean long sections of rail in the open where there are large stretches of bullhead, I find it amazing that over 50 percent is bullhead as I rarely hear the "clickety clack" sound when using the met or picc. Struggling to think of much on the Northern for a start. A bit round Finchley Central, some between Golders Green station and tunnel mouth, and that's about it. Mill Hill branch is almost entirely jointed on wooden sleepers, albeit with every other joint welded, but most of that is flat bottom rail. Most of the longer sections remaining have disappeared in the last couple of years, leaving just isolated sections remaining. As posted elsewhere, this large-scale disappearance has been a much slower process in the tunnels, but it's gradually going there too, sadly.
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Post by Harsig on Aug 18, 2017 7:02:31 GMT
I should have been more specific, I mean long sections of rail in the open where there are large stretches of bullhead, I find it amazing that over 50 percent is bullhead as I rarely hear the "clickety clack" sound when using the met or picc. People often make the mistake of equating Bullhead rail with jointed track. The Underground, however has been using long welded Bullhead rails for decades. HG Follenfant, in his 1975 book 'Reconstructing London's Underground' has a section on track and rails. In it he notes that the Underground established a rail welding plant at Lillie Bridge in 1938, and that until 1949 it was the only rail welding plant and in the U.K., thus any long welded rails installed anywhere in the U.K. prior to 1949 were welded at Lillie Bridge, and that it was not until 1960 that the mileage of welded rails on BR exceeded that on the Underground. The Underground's original approach was to weld rails into 300 foot lengths with machined rail ends. These lengths would then be jointed on site in the normal way, except that no expansion gaps would be provided. This would produce an effective continuous rail up to half a mile long. Expansion joints were provided at half mile intervals. At a later date on site rail welding would be used to joint the 300 foot rails. The Underground's motive for the early adoption of long welded rails was to reduce the number of rail joints in a given length of track. Rail joints are maintenance intensive, and when you can't access the track while trains are running (because it is in a tunnel) anything which reduces the time required for maintenance is a boon. The transition from Bullhead to flat bottom rail was a different issue. On BR the change was driven by the desire for higher train speeds ( flat bottom track is more stable than Bullhead) and for greater axle loads. The Underground needed neither of these things and so the transition was delayed until it was simply cheaper to install new flat bottom rail rather than Bullhead.
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Post by marri260 on Aug 18, 2017 10:46:39 GMT
Remember the figure of 89% of the Met now being flat bottom being mentioned on a PW course I was on last year (or perhaps the one the year before that). As North End says, when it comes to thinking about it there really isn't an awful lot left, especially north of Finchley Road on the Met which is the area I'm most familiar with. Imagine a large percentage of the overall network figure for bullhead is made up of that in the deep tube as has already been said.
On the Met there is a section just after leaving Finchley Road NB up until pretty much level with the end of the Jubilee's siding at West Hampstead, and a section on the SB from adjacent to the platform ramp at Dollis Hill through to 200m or so before Willesden Green. Those are the only notable bits of plain line bullhead on the Met main that I can think of. The Chesham single is entirely bullhead too, which accounts for a fair percentage.
Still quite a few points & crossings (P&C) in bullhead though. At Wembley Park the connection from SB Jubilee - SB Met and the set from platform 6 into Wembley Park sidings. At Harrow the entirety of the North Junction, 95 crossover North of platforms 1&2, 200 crossover South of platforms 1&2, and all the P&C on the crossovers from the NB Local and NB Fast south of platforms 3&4 at Harrow. All P&C at Watford is bullhead, along with the plain line within the station area and between the points. A few left at Amersham too, and all of the P&C at Chalfont. Uxbridge has a tiny bit left on the plain line between the points outside the station, although a couple of the points in the station throat are flatbottom.
Ballasted track renewals over the last few years on the Met and District have eliminated a huge amount of bullhead. Also a fair bit of work the northern part of the Circle too, and more recently this year on the Hammersmith branch. It is slowly disappearing. A good effort too on renewing P&C to flat bottom too recently in a number of major areas, all of the mainline P&C at Neasden is flatbottom, a large chunk of Harrow, a large chunk of Barking, and almost all of Earls Court now too along with other more basic areas such as Rickmansworth and Ruislip.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 13:14:00 GMT
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Post by brigham on Aug 18, 2017 17:32:25 GMT
I must be behind the times. I thought it was ALL bullhead! Speaking of jointed track; are the joints staggered in the Underground? You never seem to get the clear, precise clickety-clack of mainline memory. Instead, just a jumble of clicks ans clacks, repeated at regular intervals. I first noticed it as a kid, in the '60s, and it still can be heard on occasion. There's an example of the sound in the Gary Oldman 'Tinker, tailor, Soldier, Spy', although seemingly not on LT.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 20:52:25 GMT
Probably masked by the clatter you tend to hear in the tube tunnels anyway, and on the Jubilee lines, that distinctive Gear Change sound as the train gathers speed in the tunnel, when moving away from the station!!!
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 18, 2017 21:46:47 GMT
Certainly a few years ago, when S7 trains were relatively new, I noticed that the bay platform and Barking has jointed bullhead - and for westbound trains this continues to where the bay platform track joins the main route.
Also noticeable is the clickety-clack noise on the jointed track.
Hope this helps
Simon
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North End
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Post by North End on Aug 18, 2017 22:16:20 GMT
I must be behind the times. I thought it was ALL bullhead! Speaking of jointed track; are the joints staggered in the Underground? You never seem to get the clear, precise clickety-clack of mainline memory. Instead, just a jumble of clicks ans clacks, repeated at regular intervals. I first noticed it as a kid, in the '60s, and it still can be heard on occasion. There's an example of the sound in the Gary Oldman 'Tinker, tailor, Soldier, Spy', although seemingly not on LT. There certainly used to be sections of uniform length, Epping-Ongar was one such section, Chalfont-Chesham was another, also Hillingdon-Uxbridge westbound. Very few bits remaining now but prob the odd sections somewhere, although I can't readily think of any. Mill Hill branch is one section, albeit flat bottom rail and with every other joint welded.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 23:19:41 GMT
Kings Cross EB on the curve paralleling the disused Thameslink station up until the first of the Clerkenwell portals, the SB approach on the Met coming into Wembley Park and a small section of the SB Met between Dollis Hill and Willesden Green. Patches of bullhead still persist on the NB run on the Met between Baker St and Finchley Rd although the current early closure works Mon-Wed mean that these sections are getting fewer as the months roll by.
Edgware Rd (SSR) is still mainly bull head, I can't recall what the tracks are on leading up to Praed St Junction.
Farringdon has got a real mix now as the tracks immediately east and west of the station including the junction for City Sidings are of course of a modern spec but the tracks partway down the platforms leading to 36 points are on bullhead.
The Rayners Ln/Uxbridge Branch of the Piccadilly used to have quite long sections of bullhead but the last couple of years have seen more aggressive renewal plans which have relegated it to between Alperton and Sudbury Town and parts of the Roxeth Viaduct between South Harrow and Rayners Ln.
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Post by zbang on Aug 19, 2017 4:19:50 GMT
Curious here- Why has bullhead lasted as long as it has? Less-used sections won't have worn much and sleepers & chairs can last a -long- time under the right conditions, but I'm kind of surprised that there's much at all still in the system.
Is it simply a matter of too much work/expense to replace an entire section of track rather than individual parts as they need it?
z!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 10:39:03 GMT
Curious here- Why has bullhead lasted as long as it has? Less-used sections won't have worn much and sleepers & chairs can last a -long- time under the right conditions, but I'm kind of surprised that there's much at all still in the system. Is it simply a matter of too much work/expense to replace an entire section of track rather than individual parts as they need it? z! Well to be honest, the past decade has seen bull head rail's dominance on the SSR rapidly decrease especially on open sections where the track is in a more aggressive environment. In zone 1 of course the conditions are less taxing which is why even with a more intensive use there are still patches of it lying around. As long as the usual parameters such as profile are in good shape there is little incentive to replace bull head just for the sake of continuity on it's own. But for example when large scale drainage work needed to take place as seen with the fortnight blockade of the Circle/District between High St Ken and Edgware Rd the opportunity presented itself to replace the track at the same time. Your question on parts over whole sections of track is a conundrum faced when fitting track replacements around points, depending on the level of use they may simply be worked around with constituent components patched up as seen with 36 points at Farringdon and 5 points at Liverpool St (SSR). If the points are in regular use then they will be replaced with sure locks as seen at Harrow South Jct (203 & 204?) and parts of Earls Court with whole sale track replacement taking place in the surrounding areas. It's all conditional on the actual state of the components, intensity of use and any other works in the area that may benefit from whole sale track renewal such as drainage-works or resignalling both of which are driving the persistent programme of track renewals on the SSR.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Aug 19, 2017 14:30:21 GMT
Uxbridge throat and approach leaving eastbound are a particular memory from school. It was very clear travelling in A stock at the front. Must have changed maybe ten or more years ago now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 14:44:59 GMT
The points at Uxbridge have not changed so that will still be the same
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 14:58:31 GMT
Uxbridge throat and approach leaving eastbound are a particular memory from school. It was very clear travelling in A stock at the front. Must have changed maybe ten or more years ago now. Stayed like that until the summer blockade of 2014 when the majority of the Uxbridge branch (apart from the sidings and 28,29,30 and 31 points) had it's track replaced. S stock with an Eastbound departure from Uxbridge platform 4 in 2012.
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