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Post by zcap on Aug 10, 2017 14:53:56 GMT
Hey all Basically, ive been intrigued for a while by the Kings Cross approach on the Inner Circle, especially since my commute takes me over this stretch of track on a daily basis but also because im trying to chronicle the SSL signals and their approximate function before their eventual removal (hence why most of my questions on signalling relate to signals on the SSL). I have a few questions related to the approach: 1) How many home signals does the Inner Circle approach have and how are they numbered (including any repeaters)? 2) Are any of them speed controlled signals and if so which? (Ive always assumed at least the first two signals are speed controlled) 3) Which of the home signals does the Repeater in advance of A210 repeat? 4) How has the removal of the Outer Circle to Inner Circle crossover affected the interlocking of the signals, as in, before the removal of the points, if a train was reversing East to West and a train was approaching along the Inner Circle, where would the train on the Inner Circle have been held? (Also what was the old shunt signals' number?) This is quite detailed, I know, but ive always tried to catch a glimpse of them from my train and note them down and have never quite been able to see them (I think most of them are in the 6ft way), which is a bit of a bummer since especially in the peaks, they really provide a great working example of a long sequence of Multi-Home signals doing their job properly. Any help would be appreciated! (Ps, since the introduction of the new crossover between Euston Square and Kings Cross, I could ask a similar question for trains approaching Kings Cross on the Outer Circle, but i'll refrain from that for now )
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 16:17:54 GMT
You don't want much do you
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Post by zcap on Aug 10, 2017 16:23:34 GMT
You don't want much do you Haha, I havent asked a question for a while so I thought I'd go all out on this one.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 16:29:30 GMT
(Also what was the old shunt signals' number?) This is the only one I know, I'm afraid, it was OJ19A.
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Post by zcap on Aug 10, 2017 16:40:38 GMT
This is the only one I know, I'm afraid, it was OJ19A. Highly appreciated
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Post by Harsig on Aug 10, 2017 19:40:41 GMT
The diagram below should answer some of your questions. Click on it to download a larger zoomable version in a PDF file As a bonus, here is a photo of the signalling diagram at Baker St SCC in the process of being modified when the crossovers were altered...
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Post by zcap on Aug 10, 2017 19:46:45 GMT
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Post by zcap on Aug 10, 2017 21:50:33 GMT
Another Q,(im pushing it I know ), on the Baker Street SCC diagram, what do the outwards pointing transverse arrows near Euston Square represent mean? -Edit- After some thinking (using the term loosely here), I guess they are Limits of Shunt. Is this correct?
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Tom
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Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Aug 10, 2017 21:56:34 GMT
Hey all Basically, ive been intrigued for a while by the Kings Cross approach on the Inner Circle, especially since my commute takes me over this stretch of track on a daily basis but also because im trying to chronicle the SSL signals and their approximate function before their eventual removal (hence why most of my questions on signalling relate to signals on the SSL). I have a few questions related to the approach: 1) How many home signals does the Inner Circle approach have and how are they numbered (including any repeaters)? 2) Are any of them speed controlled signals and if so which? (Ive always assumed at least the first two signals are speed controlled) 3) Which of the home signals does the Repeater in advance of A210 repeat? 4) How has the removal of the Outer Circle to Inner Circle crossover affected the interlocking of the signals, as in, before the removal of the points, if a train was reversing East to West and a train was approaching along the Inner Circle, where would the train on the Inner Circle have been held? (Also what was the old shunt signals' number?) This is quite detailed, I know, but ive always tried to catch a glimpse of them from my train and note them down and have never quite been able to see them (I think most of them are in the 6ft way), which is a bit of a bummer since especially in the peaks, they really provide a great working example of a long sequence of Multi-Home signals doing their job properly. Any help would be appreciated! (Ps, since the introduction of the new crossover between Euston Square and Kings Cross, I could ask a similar question for trains approaching Kings Cross on the Outer Circle, but i'll refrain from that for now ) Looks like Harsig beat me to it, but: 2) OJ19 E has speed control. 4) The resignalling caused a number of locking changes and we completely replaced the mechanical locking with new. Not many people know of the trouble getting those tiles... I had to sit in the Courier's depot refusing to leave unless I had them!
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Post by zcap on Aug 10, 2017 22:37:55 GMT
Looks like Harsig beat me to it, but: 2) OJ19 E has speed control. 4) The resignalling caused a number of locking changes and we completely replaced the mechanical locking with new. Not many people know of the trouble getting those tiles... I had to sit in the Courier's depot refusing to leave unless I had them! Waiting for those tiles sounds like it was a mildly stressful affair :') RE: 2) I assume by OJ19 E you mean OJ14 E (sorry if im being silly). That seems quite unusual (and hence even more interesting) to have the inner signal in the sequence speed controlled. Im guessing at 20/25mph. Any clues as to why this is so and not the outer signal(s)? RE: 4) How long did that interlocking change take? It sounds like a fairly daunting task.
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Post by Harsig on Aug 11, 2017 14:43:15 GMT
Another Q,(im pushing it I know ), on the Baker Street SCC diagram, what do the outwards pointing transverse arrows near Euston Square represent mean? -Edit- After some thinking (using the term loosely here), I guess they are Limits of Shunt. Is this correct? They are not limits of shunt. They are site boundary markers. The area controlled by Baker Street SCC is divided into eight computer sites. Each has a pair of local site computers controlling the signalling in that area. The computers also handle all indications from the signalling system in their area and relay these back to the SCC. In the event that both computers on a single site fail then all control and indications are lost for that area, and the boundary markers help the signalmen identify the exact limits of the area affected. The boundary markers at Euston Square denote the boundary between the Baker Street site and the Farringdon site.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 11, 2017 15:32:26 GMT
This thread really encapsulates what this forum is all about, and shows why we always love people asking questions.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 11, 2017 21:35:43 GMT
Sorry, yes, meant OJ14E. Replacing the locking took about 12 hours - it was done on Christmas Day and tested on Boxing Day, though it is generally not as complicated as with a traditional frame. The locking is simply a kit of parts that were pre-made, and tested prior to the installation on site which reduced the testing time needed. The rest of the testing wasn't quite as quick however!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2017 0:58:17 GMT
Not another 100 relays
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Post by bananaman on Aug 12, 2017 8:40:20 GMT
The locking is simply a kit of parts that were pre-made, and tested prior to the installation on site which reduced the testing time needed. The rest of the testing wasn't quite as quick however! Who made the kit of parts, was it done in-house or contracted out?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 12, 2017 16:10:31 GMT
It was all done in-house.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 14, 2017 16:28:18 GMT
I really don't want to say this... but I've noticed a teeny, tiny error in Harsig's 'after' diagram.
The three auto signals approaching Euston Square (A204/202/200) should all be normally red, not green, as they only clear when either OJ20 clears or their approach track(s) are occupied.
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Post by jmm on Aug 14, 2017 17:18:25 GMT
Why is OJ20 semi-automatic? To prevent trains from carrying on when the service is suspended west of King's Cross and have to reverse via OJ17 and 18 points?
Also, why is A201 red in the after diagram?
Greetings.
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Post by zcap on Aug 16, 2017 17:23:47 GMT
Why is OJ20 semi-automatic? To prevent trains from carrying on when the service is suspended west of King's Cross and have to reverse via OJ17 and 18 points? Also, why is A201 red in the after diagram? Greetings. For A.201, I assume its because it has a timed track circuit (and a policeman, a timed trainstop without a signal) in rear of it that means it can only clear once the train has cleared the timing section, ergo making A.201s default signal aspect that of being at danger; red. Extra fact (that could be fiction): The policeman in rear of A.201 is there to protect the crossover in advance of OJ.13, from overrun since A.201 does not provide sufficient overlap, for a train travelling at line speed as far as I know For OJ.20, Im not sure, but to prevent reversers from carrying on makes sense. I THINK (although I cannot confirm since I am not in the country right now), the Inner Circle Limit of Shunt is right at OJ.20. Maybe someone can expand on the OJ.20 point?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 19:12:19 GMT
Extra fact (that could be fiction): The policeman in rear of A.201 is there to protect the crossover in advance of OJ.13, from overrun since A.201 does not provide sufficient overlap, for a train travelling at line speed as far as I know It's to protect a train standing at OJ13. There is insufficient overlap to protect a train in the section between A201 and OJ13 from a SPAD of A201 at full line speed. districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/26500/blind-trainstop-euston-sq-eastbound
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Post by zcap on Aug 16, 2017 19:16:13 GMT
Legend, I knew i'd read it somewhere on the forum!
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Post by jmm on Aug 16, 2017 19:26:13 GMT
Thank you all for your answers!
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Post by zcap on Aug 20, 2017 20:12:35 GMT
Thank you all for your answers! Thou beest most welcome! 😁
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 21, 2017 21:01:54 GMT
Extra fact (that could be fiction): The policeman in rear of A.201 is there to protect the crossover in advance of OJ.13, from overrun since A.201 does not provide sufficient overlap, for a train travelling at line speed as far as I know It's to protect a train standing at OJ13. There is insufficient overlap to protect a train in the section between A201 and OJ13 from a SPAD of A201 at full line speed. districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/26500/blind-trainstop-euston-sq-eastboundSort of. The trainstop protects a train ahead waiting to use the crossover rather than the crossover itself. The EB road is particularly messy due to the need to protect the berths without worsening headway. A201 is normally red to validate the assumption made at the design stage that all trains would start from rest at Euston Square, thus allowing overlaps to be calculated from a nominal 35km/h start speed. Station starters are often provided with a short overlap for headway purposes but that is on the condition that there is no berth in the equivalent full speed overlap. Where there is (and this is a case in point) various means are provided to protect that berth ahead - this is the purpose of 2010V. In addition to all this, A197 is fitted with additional controls so that it will only clear with a train at OJ130 if that train has a clear signal and is likely to be moving off shortly. Now, as for OJ20. About 25 or so years ago a driver was instructed to reverse using an emergency crossover, drove past (well past) the limit of shunt, realised his error and then proceeded back in the wrong direction. To eliminate this risk some signals were converted to controlled signals so that in the event of a need to reverse the train was always doing so towards a signal at danger. OJ20 is one such example where a controlled signal is provided at the end of a 'shunt ahead' move, and in all honesty the LOS sign is surplus to requirements - the same message is given twice. On subsequent projects we have managed to omit the LOS when there is a controlled signal which terminates the 'shunt ahead' move.
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North End
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Post by North End on Aug 21, 2017 23:00:34 GMT
Now, as for OJ20. About 25 or so years ago a driver was instructed to reverse using an emergency crossover, drove past (well past) the limit of shunt, realised his error and then proceeded back in the wrong direction. To eliminate this risk some signals were converted to controlled signals so that in the event of a need to reverse the train was always doing so towards a signal at danger. OJ20 is one such example where a controlled signal is provided at the end of a 'shunt ahead' move, and in all honesty the LOS sign is surplus to requirements - the same message is given twice. On subsequent projects we have managed to omit the LOS when there is a controlled signal which terminates the 'shunt ahead' move. I understand the thinking behind this, however this takes me back to the main line shunt at Mornington Crescent where a train reversing north to south would run north to signal E.4 then change ends, with no LOS board. I remember someone managed to shut the job down for about 20 minutes sitting at E.4 waiting for it to clear thinking they had to continue driving to a LOS board... As for the King's Cross changes, I understand why everything is like it is, but from the point of view of someone who travels between KX and Euston Square stations in both directions on a very regular basis, what used to be a fast and comfortable run is now slow and uncomfortable in the majority of cases. Some drivers seem able to negotiate it confidently, but even after months with the new setup many don't.
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