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Post by silenthunter on Jul 8, 2017 18:04:22 GMT
Do we know whether this will be in a zone or outside them? Also, would Oyster be valid on GWR HST/IEP services?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 20:15:35 GMT
My prediction is outside them but according to a TfL worker aboard a Class 345, they want Reading in Fare zone 9 or 10. However considering the controversial decision to put Brentwood in fare zone 9, they said it is very likely that stations west of Maidenhead may be outside of fare zone 9 hence 'Special fares apply'. They expect Iver to be in fare zone 7 (or 6 and 7) as it is just outside the M25. Their predictions are below:
Iver and Langley - zone 7
Slough - zones 7 and 8
Burnham and Taplow - zone 8
Maidenhead and Twyford - zone 9
Reading - special fares apply
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Post by sudburytown on Jul 8, 2017 20:21:20 GMT
Would this mean that a Freedom Pass is likely to be valid?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 20:45:41 GMT
They said a Freedom Pass should be valid all the way to Reading on the Crossrail Elizabeth line only. If the line operates with severe delays, cancellations, or is suspended/closed, then Freedom Pass holders will be allowed to travel on GWR services (London Paddington <-> Reading only - including stations inbetween) for nothing.
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Post by phil on Jul 8, 2017 20:45:48 GMT
As with the Eastern Crossrail stations (where serves are also provided by other franchised TOCs) then TfL fares from Reading etc must be the same as those operated by the likes of GWR. Moreover TfL are not allowed to have 'cliff edge' fares between a jointly served station and an exclusively TfL served station - meaning that regardless of what the Mayor may say, fares on Crossrail / London Overground can never be Frozen for the length of his term as is possible on the Tube / DLR / Buses As such Reading, plus Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough (given all the Thames Valley branches will definitely stay with GWR, even if TfLs land grab for the residual semi fast GWR Reading services comes off) will most likely require to be put into special fare zones outside the normal ones - just like stations to Gatwick Airport . (Its worth noting that in distance terms Reading is even further outside of London than Gatwick Airport is!) This may be of use en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_in_London_fare_zones_7%E2%80%93W but it should be noted Fare zones B, C, G and W, and the route out to Gatwick Airport, have fares set by National Rail train operating companies. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 20:52:16 GMT
As with the Eastern Crossrail stations (where serves are also provided by other franchised TOCs) then TfL fares from Reading etc must be the same as those operated by the likes of GWR. Moreover TfL are not allowed to have 'cliff edge' fares between a jointly served station and an exclusively TfL served station - meaning that regardless of what the Mayor may say, fares on Crossrail / London Overground can never be Frozen for the length of his term as is possible on the Tube / DLR / Buses As such Reading, plus Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough (given all the Thames Valley branches will definitely stay with GWR, even if TfLs land grab for the residual semi fast GWR Reading services comes off) will most likely require to be put into special fare zones outside the normal ones - just like stations to Gatwick Airport . (Its worth noting that in distance terms Reading is even further outside of London than Gatwick Airport is!) This may be of use en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_in_London_fare_zones_7%E2%80%93W but it should be noted Fare zones B, C, G and W, and the route out to Gatwick Airport, have fares set by National Rail train operating companies. Agreed. I think they will do the same thing they did with stations to Gatwick Airport. |
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Post by phil on Jul 8, 2017 20:53:08 GMT
They said a Freedom Pass should be valid all the way to Reading on the Crossrail Elizabeth line only. If the line operates with severe delays, cancellations, or is suspended/closed, then Freedom Pass holders will be allowed to travel on GWR services for nothing. In other words just like any other ticket with route / operator restrictions then during disruption - so nothing unique to TfL passes and certainly not quite 'a travel for nothing' situation (though admittedly that is what the user will perceive) as some form of compensation / inducements is/ are usually arranged behind the scenes between operators. i.e. Its no different to Southern arranging ticket acceptance by London Midland if the service to Milton Keynes is suspended or when SWT accept GWR tickets when they had issues at Hayes last week. |
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Post by peterc on Jul 8, 2017 21:02:45 GMT
They said a Freedom Pass should be valid all the way to Reading on the Crossrail Elizabeth line only. If the line operates with severe delays, cancellations, or is suspended/closed, then Freedom Pass holders will be allowed to travel on GWR services (London Paddington <-> Reading only - including stations inbetween) for nothing. Although I won't be at all suprised if they start restricting the use of Freedom Passes and 60+ cards outside Greater London. With free travel over those sort of distances I am sure that people will start to find ways to claim London addresses for a 60+ which will be valid until their ever increasing retirement date. |
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Post by phil on Jul 8, 2017 21:09:18 GMT
Do we know whether this will be in a zone or outside them? Also, would Oyster be valid on GWR HST/IEP services? Very likely due to the way shared stations must be handled with respect to fares (to to be more specific, what percentage of revenues gathered from fares are dolled out to each operator) - after all it can be used from Watford Junction on London Midland / Southern services southbound while on Grater Anglia routes Oyster is also available on their services, not just the TfL ones. However because fares at stations where franchises let by the DfT call are agreed between ALL operators - that effectively means that the Oyster fare will be set the same as a standard single (peak times) or standard off peak single. Consequently, as with 'Oyster to Gatwick Airport' there are likely to be cheaper operator specific / time specific / advance ticketing options available for those who wish to research such things and not use the "Its Oyster and it will always give us the best fare" stuff TfL come out with. On TfL run services that might be true, but when it comes to Oysters extension onto services operated by franchises let by the DfT things are very different. |
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Post by silenthunter on Jul 8, 2017 21:24:06 GMT
Do we know whether this will be in a zone or outside them? Also, would Oyster be valid on GWR HST/IEP services? Very likely due to the way shared stations must be handled with respect to fares (to to be more specific, what percentage of revenues gathered from fares are dolled out to each operator) - after all it can be used from Watford Junction on London Midland / Southern services southbound while on Grater Anglia routes Oyster is also available on their services, not just the TfL ones. However because fares at stations where franchises let by the DfT call are agreed between ALL operators - that effectively means that the Oyster fare will be set the same as a standard single (peak times) or standard off peak single. Consequently, as with 'Oyster to Gatwick Airport' there are likely to be cheaper operator specific / time specific / advance ticketing options available for those who wish to research such things and not use the "Its Oyster and it will always give us the best fare" stuff TfL come out with. On TfL run services that might be true, but when it comes to Oysters extension onto services operated by franchises let by the DfT things are very different. However, Oyster is not valid on Virgin Trains services to Watford Junction from Euston, who use 125mph capable Pendolinos. With GWR to Reading, you will have Electrostar semi-fast services (Crossrail will of course be operating the stopping ones) and 125mph capable IEPs. Anyone wanting to head out for Reading from Paddington will likely go for the latter. Which could create problems. |
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Post by silenthunter on Jul 8, 2017 21:25:31 GMT
As with the Eastern Crossrail stations (where serves are also provided by other franchised TOCs) then TfL fares from Reading etc must be the same as those operated by the likes of GWR. Moreover TfL are not allowed to have 'cliff edge' fares between a jointly served station and an exclusively TfL served station - meaning that regardless of what the Mayor may say, fares on Crossrail / London Overground can never be Frozen for the length of his term as is possible on the Tube / DLR / Buses As such Reading, plus Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough (given all the Thames Valley branches will definitely stay with GWR, even if TfLs land grab for the residual semi fast GWR Reading services comes off) will most likely require to be put into special fare zones outside the normal ones - just like stations to Gatwick Airport . (Its worth noting that in distance terms Reading is even further outside of London than Gatwick Airport is!) This may be of use en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_in_London_fare_zones_7%E2%80%93W but it should be noted Fare zones B, C, G and W, and the route out to Gatwick Airport, have fares set by National Rail train operating companies. Agreed. I think they will do the same thing they did with stations to Gatwick Airport. However, you have different fares on Gatwick Express than on Southern. |
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Post by phil on Jul 8, 2017 22:09:59 GMT
Agreed. I think they will do the same thing they did with stations to Gatwick Airport. However, you have different fares on Gatwick Express than on Southern. That only is possible due to the use of dedicated platforms at London Victoria with special Oyster readers that instigate the higher fare. If a Southern train gets routed into these platforms then staff have to rearrange some movable barriers to force passengers to use the normal 'Southern' Oyster readers on adjacent exits / entrances so they don't get charged the higher fare. At Gatwick the platforms are not segregated in terms of ticket barriers so the decision to charge a higher fare is entirely down to the Victoria end. This model won't work with Crossrail as, just with Gatwick, stations such as Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough (and wherever GWR continue to serve) will not be equipped with Crossrail only platforms - particularly at Reading. While Crossrail having its own platforms at Paddington could be useful, as Crossrail is not a non-stop service so you could only be able to discriminate between Paddington and the first common GWR + Crossrail shared station - which could be only as far out as Ealing Broadway depending on GWRs stopping patterns. Granted if GWR non stop express services only use a certain batch of platforms at Paddington then it would be possible to charge travel on these services at a higher rate, just as happens with Gatwick Express |
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Post by phil on Jul 8, 2017 22:21:42 GMT
Very likely due to the way shared stations must be handled with respect to fares (to to be more specific, what percentage of revenues gathered from fares are dolled out to each operator) - after all it can be used from Watford Junction on London Midland / Southern services southbound while on Grater Anglia routes Oyster is also available on their services, not just the TfL ones. However because fares at stations where franchises let by the DfT call are agreed between ALL operators - that effectively means that the Oyster fare will be set the same as a standard single (peak times) or standard off peak single. Consequently, as with 'Oyster to Gatwick Airport' there are likely to be cheaper operator specific / time specific / advance ticketing options available for those who wish to research such things and not use the "Its Oyster and it will always give us the best fare" stuff TfL come out with. On TfL run services that might be true, but when it comes to Oysters extension onto services operated by franchises let by the DfT things are very different. However, Oyster is not valid on Virgin Trains services to Watford Junction from Euston, who use 125mph capable Pendolinos. With GWR to Reading, you will have Electrostar semi-fast services (Crossrail will of course be operating the stopping ones) and 125mph capable IEPs. Anyone wanting to head out for Reading from Paddington will likely go for the latter. Which could create problems. Officially there are no Virgin trains from Watford to Euston and hence the fares allocation doesn't include them Up Virgin services to London call there specifically to set down passengers only, while Down trains call there for the express purpose of picking up folk who are travelling northwards. Reading however is a lot further out from London and as such tickets from there to London via what used to be called InterCity services (operated by HSTs) were indeed offered at a higher price than Network SouthEast ones (operated by DMUs). Since the two franchises (originally each was let as a separate entity) were merged in a previous Franchising round I'm not sure what has occurred with fares, but its quite possible that this differentiation still exists somehow. In which case things will indeed be very complicated. Ultimately however the DfT and Treasury will not countenance fares going down when Crossrail arrives so Oyster has to either face restrictions on its use or reflect the highest possible Reading - London fare. |
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Post by snoggle on Jul 8, 2017 22:42:01 GMT
They said a Freedom Pass should be valid all the way to Reading on the Crossrail Elizabeth line only. If the line operates with severe delays, cancellations, or is suspended/closed, then Freedom Pass holders will be allowed to travel on GWR services (London Paddington <-> Reading only - including stations inbetween) for nothing. While I have no doubt you were told this in good faith the potential validity of the Freedom Pass west of West Drayton is a matter for London Councils as funders of the scheme. There has been some debate about this on London Reconnections and there is no legal obligation for the Freedom Pass to be valid as far as Reading although it is apparently mandatory for the Freedom Pass to be accepted on "TfL" rail services. Somehow I doubt the legal drafters quite anticipated a TfL service reaching Reading. I will be genuinely surprised if the Freedom Pass stretches as far as Reading even if someone sits on a Crossrail train for however long an all stopper service takes. Slough I could half understand but places like Maidenhead or Reading - that's quite a stretch. Here is an informed remark from LR Therefore we can see the issue is being considered now but there is no legal requirement for free travel to reach Reading. In no way is Reading "in the vicinity" of Greater London. The scale of fare compensation to be borne by London Council taxpayers could be quite high if too many people were to utilise a hypothetical free concession as far as Reading. I know the Mayor and his predecessor have uttered grand words about fares and concessions on Crossrail but the reality is complex, involved and far from being solely in their control (see Phil's earlier posts). |
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 8, 2017 23:20:33 GMT
Aw Shucks. I'm only a few years away from my 60+ pass and was looking forward to using it for part payment of the cost of a day trip to the Didcot Railway Centre.
Simon
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Post by crusty54 on Jul 9, 2017 2:53:34 GMT
If you have a Freedom Pass or 60+ Oyster it is not valid beyond Harold Wood on Greater Anglia trains. Fortunately you can buy tickets to cover this section from machines nowadays.
Something similar could happen out to Reading. (I often buy a ticket from the existing Zone 6 boundary to there.)
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Post by peterc on Jul 9, 2017 12:43:06 GMT
If you have a Freedom Pass or 60+ Oyster it is not valid beyond Harold Wood on Greater Anglia trains. Fortunately you can buy tickets to cover this section from machines nowadays. Something similar could happen out to Reading. (I often buy a ticket from the existing Zone 6 boundary to there.) But, according to the TfL website, they are valid on the TfL Rail stoppers. Apart from on train inspection I am not sure how the ban on Greater Anglia could be enforced, especially on Sundays with GA trains from Southend stopping at all stations to Romford. |
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Post by silenthunter on Jul 9, 2017 12:56:24 GMT
However, Oyster is not valid on Virgin Trains services to Watford Junction from Euston, who use 125mph capable Pendolinos. With GWR to Reading, you will have Electrostar semi-fast services (Crossrail will of course be operating the stopping ones) and 125mph capable IEPs. Anyone wanting to head out for Reading from Paddington will likely go for the latter. Which could create problems. Officially there are no Virgin trains from Watford to Euston and hence the fares allocation doesn't include them Up Virgin services to London call there specifically to set down passengers only, while Down trains call there for the express purpose of picking up folk who are travelling northwards. Reading however is a lot further out from London and as such tickets from there to London via what used to be called InterCity services (operated by HSTs) were indeed offered at a higher price than Network SouthEast ones (operated by DMUs). Since the two franchises (originally each was let as a separate entity) were merged in a previous Franchising round I'm not sure what has occurred with fares, but its quite possible that this differentiation still exists somehow. In which case things will indeed be very complicated. Ultimately however the DfT and Treasury will not countenance fares going down when Crossrail arrives so Oyster has to either face restrictions on its use or reflect the highest possible Reading - London fare. There is no difference in price as to whether you get HST or Turbo; but the strong suggestion for seat reservation on HSTs means you may have problems finding a seat. I don't recall a 'speed premium' in NSE days; but I may be wrong - certainly one of the selling points of the 125 when they were introduced was that BR didn't charge a speed premium, unlike what is the norm in continental Europe. For example, Berlin regional tickets are valid on S-Bahn, R and RE trains, but it costs extra for IC/EC ones and more still for ICE. |
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Post by crusty54 on Jul 9, 2017 16:24:53 GMT
If you have a Freedom Pass or 60+ Oyster it is not valid beyond Harold Wood on Greater Anglia trains. Fortunately you can buy tickets to cover this section from machines nowadays. Something similar could happen out to Reading. (I often buy a ticket from the existing Zone 6 boundary to there.) But, according to the TfL website, they are valid on the TfL Rail stoppers. Apart from on train inspection I am not sure how the ban on Greater Anglia could be enforced, especially on Sundays with GA trains from Southend stopping at all stations to Romford. They are valid on TfL Rail services but they don't work the gates at Shenfield which allows a degree of checking but Greater Anglia have a lot of on train checks on the line. |
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Post by andypurk on Jul 9, 2017 16:44:11 GMT
Reading however is a lot further out from London and as such tickets from there to London via what used to be called InterCity services (operated by HSTs) were indeed offered at a higher price than Network SouthEast ones (operated by DMUs). Since the two franchises (originally each was let as a separate entity) were merged in a previous Franchising round I'm not sure what has occurred with fares, but its quite possible that this differentiation still exists somehow. In which case things will indeed be very complicated. Ultimately however the DfT and Treasury will not countenance fares going down when Crossrail arrives so Oyster has to either face restrictions on its use or reflect the highest possible Reading - London fare. There is no difference in price as to whether you get HST or Turbo; There is a difference in the evening peak, where off-peak tickets are available on the slower Turbo services from Paddington to Reading (and Didcot), but not on the longer distance services. |
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Post by jukes on Jul 9, 2017 17:29:57 GMT
Sorry if I'm repeating anything but just to recap. Freedom Passes will be valid on Elizabeth line trains to Reading but with the caveat already mentioned about situations of service disruption etc. Oyster PAYG will also be valid on the same basis beyond West Drayton. As for zones, TfL already operate 'shadow' zones for Travelcard and capping purposes beyond Zone 9 as follows:
Watford Junction, Purfleet, Ockendon, Chafford Hundred & Grays - Zone 10
Broxbourne to Hertford East - Zone 11
Shenfield - Zone 12
Earlswood, Horley, Merstham, Redhill & Salfords - Zone 13
Gatwick Airport - Zone 14
All of the above 'shadow zone' details came from a recent FOI response from TfL
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Post by bicbasher on Jul 9, 2017 18:16:31 GMT
My concern is that London Freedom Pass holders are used to unlimited travel on TfL operated rail and bus services outside London. Branded as the Elizabeth line will further give the impression that it's a LU service, rather than a TfL/NR service.
How many pensioners will be clued up on getting a Boundary Zone ticket to Reading travelling on a Elizabeth line service and will LU stations that serve Crossrail sell them? Ideally the likes of TCR, Farringdon etc will have NR TVM's in addition to the POM's to sell NR tickets.
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Post by jukes on Jul 9, 2017 18:28:45 GMT
For Freedom Pass holders travelling on the Elizabeth line to Reading it will be just like any other service and indeed just like it is at present travelling to Cheshunt or Shenfield or Watford junction where you can ONLY use a TfL operated train unless there is disruption when special arrangements exist.
Boundary Zone tickets will only be required by TravelCard users where travel is out of zone or they can use a PAYG balance on their tickets as now. Essentially this will not make the London Fare Zones or the use of Freedom Passes or TravelCards any more complicated than it already is.
It does however, highlight the need yet again for the DfT and TfL along with RDG to sit down and think quite seriously about a truly integrated system of fare zones in London and the surrounding Home County area.
As regards Elizabeth line seeming to be an LU service, there is an 'animated' discussion going on at the moment within TfL that it should come operationally under the MD LU.
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Post by crusty54 on Jul 9, 2017 18:44:08 GMT
My concern is that London Freedom Pass holders are used to unlimited travel on TfL operated rail and bus services outside London. Branded as the Elizabeth line will further give the impression that it's a LU service, rather than a TfL/NR service. How many pensioners will be clued up on getting a Boundary Zone ticket to Reading travelling on a Elizabeth line service and will LU stations that serve Crossrail sell them? Ideally the likes of TCR, Farringdon etc will have NR TVM's in addition to the POM's to sell NR tickets. You can already see the first of the new generation of TVM (Ticket Vending Machine). It is in the entrance to Stratford station (Westfield end). The existing TVMs at many stations have been updated to offer tickets for journeys starting at another station. These now have boundary stations as a starting point. The silver surfer generation are just as clued up as you are (perhaps even better). |
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Post by snoggle on Jul 10, 2017 10:49:43 GMT
If you have a Freedom Pass or 60+ Oyster it is not valid beyond Harold Wood on Greater Anglia trains. Fortunately you can buy tickets to cover this section from machines nowadays. Something similar could happen out to Reading. (I often buy a ticket from the existing Zone 6 boundary to there.) But, according to the TfL website, they are valid on the TfL Rail stoppers. Apart from on train inspection I am not sure how the ban on Greater Anglia could be enforced, especially on Sundays with GA trains from Southend stopping at all stations to Romford. I was out and about on Greater Anglia semi fasts a couple of weeks ago on the GEML. My ticket was checked on every single train - even between Colchester Town and Colchester North. Ironically there was no check on the "Inter City" service. I was astonished at the intensity of the on train ticket checks so it can be done. Obviously in crowded peak conditions it far less likely but then few GA trains stop at Romford in the peaks. |
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Post by mattdickinson on Jul 10, 2017 13:55:41 GMT
They said a Freedom Pass should be valid all the way to Reading on the Crossrail Elizabeth line only. If the line operates with severe delays, cancellations, or is suspended/closed, then Freedom Pass holders will be allowed to travel on GWR services (London Paddington <-> Reading only - including stations inbetween) for nothing. While I have no doubt you were told this in good faith the potential validity of the Freedom Pass west of West Drayton is a matter for London Councils as funders of the scheme. There has been some debate about this on London Reconnections and there is no legal obligation for the Freedom Pass to be valid as far as Reading although it is apparently mandatory for the Freedom Pass to be accepted on "TfL" rail services. Somehow I doubt the legal drafters quite anticipated a TfL service reaching Reading. I will be genuinely surprised if the Freedom Pass stretches as far as Reading even if someone sits on a Crossrail train for however long an all stopper service takes. Slough I could half understand but places like Maidenhead or Reading - that's quite a stretch. Here is an informed remark from LR Therefore we can see the issue is being considered now but there is no legal requirement for free travel to reach Reading. In no way is Reading "in the vicinity" of Greater London. The scale of fare compensation to be borne by London Council taxpayers could be quite high if too many people were to utilise a hypothetical free concession as far as Reading. I know the Mayor and his predecessor have uttered grand words about fares and concessions on Crossrail but the reality is complex, involved and far from being solely in their control (see Phil's earlier posts). A document studying the legal background of Freedom Passes is available at www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/node/16113and a parliamentary debate about what constitutes "in the vicinity of" at hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1963/jul/25/clause-21-housing-powers-in-greaterKeith Joseph ends up defining it: |
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Post by bicbasher on Jul 10, 2017 17:28:24 GMT
The only time I've been on a semi fast train between Stratford and Romford on GA, I wasn't checked. However when I went on the return journey on what is now the TfL Rail service back, I was checked by a GA RPI.
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Post by snoggle on Jul 11, 2017 20:08:28 GMT
I've been looking at recent Mayor's Answers. There is one that is partly relevant to this discussion. An associated one about use of concessionary passes is not yet answered.
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Post by jukes on Jul 11, 2017 21:06:53 GMT
I've been looking at recent Mayor's Answers. There is one that is partly relevant to this discussion. An associated one about use of concessionary passes is not yet answered. Yes in all probability TfL will adopt the same 'shadow zones' system as I mentioned a couple of days ago. These will not feature on any map but they will exist within TfL's internal system for fare capping and TravelCard purposes, etc. Looking at the list of 'shadow zones' and considering Gatwick is in Z14, I would guess that in all probability Twyford and Reading will be put into a new Z15. Maidenhead to Slough in Z14 and Langley to Iver into Z13. You also have to remember that TfL is subject to the binding agreement with DfT that they will not undercut TOC fares on the route beyond the Z6 boundary at West Drayton. As regards Freedom Passes I am still of the opinion that they will be honoured to Reading but only for travel on an Elizabeth line train. However, TfL may well impose the after 09.30 M-F restriction to satisfy any DfT/TOC reservations and to keep London Councils on side - although I understand LC have so far not raised any major objections in informal discussion - although that could of course change. |
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Post by dpr on Jul 12, 2017 11:46:56 GMT
Does anyone know what the likely availability of TfL staff passes is going to be on Crossrail?
(Potentially going to save me lots of money!)
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