Thameslink via Greenwich?

The 2 trains an hour are because they can't go anywhere else when the timetable is introduced.

Don't expect them to last long unless the DfT gets its way and the Charing Cross via Lewisham trains go.

No doubt they'd run the occasional train.

It's in the consultation for the new franchise. The Victoria service would also go from the Bexleyheath line.

The minister has said they won't do anything that the users don't want.

How people would get to Denmark Hill for the various hospitals I just can't imagine.

D(a)fT looking at a map without knowing what actually happens?

OK, to understand this proposed Rainham service you need to understand its background. Basically timetable modelling showed that the current flat junctions north of East Croydon simply could not cope with the original level of Thameslink service proposed - and given Thameslink is going to tie together 3 very busy main lines it is essential the timetable is robust enough to not generate delay by trying to push through more trains than the infrastructure can cope with. Thus it was decided to reduce the number of trains passing through the relevant junctions - but to maintain 24tph through the core there was a desire not to remove them from Thameslink completely.

As such the hunt was on for suitable destinations that (i) could be accessed via London Bridge and (ii) Destinations that could cope with the fixed formation 12 car long class 700 trains used on all London Bridge services. After much consideration of all the factors (and acknowledging that every option had flaws) the Rainham route via Greenwich was selected as the most promising. However this is all rather late in the day so to speak as the [pst 2018 service patten that included the likes of Caterham & Tattenham Corner seemed to be pretty much established as the 'final' one, even if no-one would officially say so. As such its quite possible that diversion of Thameslink to Rainham caught those working on the future SE service provision by supprise and hence the rather muddled SE consultation on future service patterns.

The Thameslink service would not stop at Deptford, Maze Hill or Westcombe Park.

The only services from Lewisham to Victoria are Bexleyheath line trains. Large numbers of staff rely on these trains to get to Denmark Hill. There

The track layout was modified at great expense to reduce conflicts.

Which line do you use? Perhaps your trains should all go to Cannon Street.

Greenwich line is already all Cannon Street. One track or signalling problem and you can't get anywhere.

I've seen the consultation for this, and its absolutely absurd, its going to replace the longstanding semi fast Charing Cross to Gillingham service, so now commuters from Rochester will enjoy a nice long commute calling at all stations except for
Erith, Belvedere and Woolwich Dockyard.

I honestly cannot see who would possibly use this service to Luton from this side of London? Especially since Crossrail will provide a faster link to Heathrow from Abbey Wood, another thing is that apparently
There will be a new fast service via Sidcup, again there's a reason why the Dartford semi fasts have always ran via Woolwich/Lewisham or Greenwich, more demand for such a service, little interference onto other main lines.

It also seems strange that this service wont go via Lewisham, considering this area is undergoing some major redevelopment and population growth, surely Lewisham is worth more serving than Maze Hill?

I seek please two geographic clarifications.

I assume that the Rainham being discussed here is the one in Kent (and not Essex) and the Luton being discussed here is the one in Bedfordshire (and not Kent).

Are my assumptions correct?

If so, it is in a way a shame, as through trains from Luton to Luton and from Rainham to Rainham (when in both cases the physical locations are many miles apart and the journeys are not circular) would be viable, albeit at the cost of perplexing any passengers who have no idea of geography.

(services to Rainham Essex might work better after the Goblin route has been energised)

Simon

Living next to the railway certainly has its benefits; about an hour ago I heard the ufo-esque motors and ran to see a class 700 pull into my local station. A quick search confirms it as 5Z82, Blackfriars to Blackfriars via Denmark Hill, Lewisham, Woolwich Arsenal, Slade Green, Eltham, Lewisham, Denmark Hill and Blackfriars.

Certainly exciting times.

Does anyone know if this route going to be timetabled, alongside the Rainham services?

Except that risks screwing up the whole BML and more.

I repeat the reason the Tattenham & Caterham services were dropped was the difficulty in finding a robust path across the FLAT junctions just to the north of East Croydon. Sending services via Greenwich has been judged to be less likely to result in delays to non Thameslink services (it won't go via Lewisham for the same reason as they cannot run to East Croydon - flat junctions).

If / when the junctions north of East Croydon a fully grade separated then there will be opportunities for further services to run that way - although the danger is that as with the Wimbledon loop trains, Thameslink trains to Rainham will have by then built up a decent user base that will scream blue murder if they lose them.

On the other hand if you don't have the Rainham service then the Thameslink service through the core drops to 20tph at peak times as there is nowhere else for the trains to go south of the river (capable of taking the 12 car fixed formation quits) that does not present an unacceptable risk to screwing up other services (Please remember Thameslink ties together the ECML, MML, BML and various Kent routes together - A delay at Croydon could easily cause a late arrival of aVTEC in Edinburgh thanks to that). 

www.google.co.uk/url?q=https://democracy.kent.gov.uk/documents/s73158/D1%2520KCC%2520response%2520to%2520GTR%2520timetable%2520consultation%2520Final.pdf&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwim9Z39_uLWAhUiD8AKHdc7AngQFggLMAA&usg=AOvVaw2hAjNHus3tw8JeUhJ_PeCo

Interesting what Kent County council has to say about this, apparently they're pushing for the Rainham service to keeping the same semi fast pattern as the current CX-Gillingham (only serving Greenwich rather than Blackheath and Lewisham of course) which makes sense, this service should not be a stopping service, and should only serve key stations, like Abbey Wood & Woolwich Arsenal.

I think this could end up being the case that its s

Not sure why you single out Maze Hill. It's probably less busy than when I knew it, before the Greenwich District Hospital closed in 2001, but Maze Hill still has about 1 million entries and exits per annum (similar to Westcombe Park or Deptford). Maze Hill is also the closest station to Greenwich Park and (albeit by a small margin) to the Royal Observatory and the Maritime Museum.

Swanscombe has 160,000 entries/exits.

I just picked those station names randomly, yes Maze Hill is the closest station to Greenwich Park but Greenwich itself has the DLR interchange, Cutty Sark and The university and even before the DLR Greenwich was always a major destination for Culture, more so than Lewisham or Blackheath, I never understood why the Semi fasts didn't serve Greenwich on a regular basis, I know in the 00s there were two semi fasts the regular one from Gillingham ran via Greenwich and a shorter one from Plumstead ran bus Lewisham.

The regular line closures on the Greenwich line will account for much of the drop in patronage. Deptford has new development all around it, and will see even bigger increases soon, and I suspect that once the Thameslink/Crossrail works are finished Westcombe Park and Maze Hill will return to normal (and then some more).

As I understand it, another factor for the introduction of Thameslink to the Greenwich line is a 2-trains-per-hour loss of capacity at Cannon Street, as the recent works have severed a line that connected Blackfriars and Cannon Street which was used to move empty stock. So the rather handy 6 trains per hour on the Greenwich line to Cannon Street is being replaced by a slightly fiddly 4 trains to Cannon Street and 2 to Blackfriars. 

I sympathise with Kent County Council - it's a bit of a dog's dinner - but the extra stops are needed in Greater London, including at Erith and Belvedere, which aren't due to be served by the new Thameslink services and will see a service *cut* under these proposals.


EDIT: Worth pointing out that Kent's observations were made last year, here's video of that meeting: kent.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/249209/start_time/8751000

It will depend on two factors - both of which will enable , or conversely could prevent any changes being made.

(i) If money being allocated to sort out the flat junctions between Norwood Junction and East Croydon (plus extra pltforms and lines between the two) then capacity will be created to re-direct the Thameslink service to destinations accessible from the Brighton line. The scheme design is already at a fairly advanced stage design wise but until funding is arranged the process cannot move beyond CAD / paper designs (also note some compulsory purchase of non-railway land will be needed). Given we are approaching the end of 2017 now and the amount of work necessary, we are looking at the mid 2020s anyway befog the capacity improvements could be delivered anyway.

(ii) If regular commuters (who will have got used to their Thameslink service by the mid 2020s) throw a massive hissy fit and get the SOS for transport to step in - them nothing will change due to political considerations and stuff what is operationally convenient (as happened with the Wimbledon loop service a few years ago).