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Post by CSLR on Mar 7, 2006 11:57:53 GMT
This is a tunnel (clever eh?) I will even tell you that it is on the City side of the Northern Line; as if you did not guess. In my opinion, this is one of the most interesting sections of tunnel that I have ever seen. Why? Any ideas what we are looking at here? The tunnel is very short. I actually had my back against a solid concrete wall in order to take the picture and used a wide angle lens to ensure that there was anything in the foreground. H&S note. This is a very old picture and the site is no longer used to store materials.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2006 12:14:38 GMT
Ah, is the smaller bore the original diameter of the CSLR tunnels and the larger one the size of the current Northern Line? Also how long ago was that taken? It looks a few years old.
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Post by CSLR on Mar 7, 2006 12:24:34 GMT
Ah, is the smaller bore the original diameter of the CSLR tunnels and the larger one the size of the current Northern Line? Also how long ago was that taken? It looks a few years old. We are part way towards an answer. The smaller tunnel is indeed an original C&SLR bore and the nearer section is an enlarged tunnel. You can see the smaller inserted segments that have been added to increase the diameter. You can also see how the shape of the tunnel has been altered in the process and is no longer circular. BUT, what happened here? It is an old photo, but it is not contemporary to the reconstruction - it was taken years later. The tunnel is still there and, if you remove all of the clutter, it looks the same today. Any further ideas?
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Mar 7, 2006 14:16:39 GMT
Start of spur to King William Street?
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Post by CSLR on Mar 7, 2006 14:31:15 GMT
Start of spur to King William Street? What a brilliant answer. It makes complete sense. Totally logical, but wrong.
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Post by CSLR on Mar 7, 2006 14:46:54 GMT
Start of spur to King William Street? For information. The junction to King William Street was created by forming a step-plate junction that butted directly onto the original running tunnels.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2006 14:58:27 GMT
Pardon my going off topic, but what is one of these?
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Post by CSLR on Mar 7, 2006 15:12:35 GMT
waland askedPardon my going off topic, but what is one of these? A step-plate junction is a tunnel that is made up of a series of rings that increase in size the further you progress. At each point where the diameter increases, there is sudden change that resembles a 'step'.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Mar 7, 2006 15:17:31 GMT
Q8 wants a go!
Here's his suggestion
"Re : the tunnel pic. I would hazard a guess at two things. Firstly it was used as a compressed air lock during the reconstruction. Or it was used as an air-raid shelter."
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Post by CSLR on Mar 7, 2006 15:24:22 GMT
Q8 wants a go!
Here's his suggestion"Re : the tunnel pic. I would hazard a guess at two things. Firstly it was used as a compressed air lock during the reconstruction. Or it was used as an air-raid shelter." We are getting some very good guesses but, sorry Q8; it was neither of these.
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Post by garth on Mar 7, 2006 15:35:50 GMT
Have him join up then
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2006 15:44:29 GMT
Thanks CSLR
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Post by CSLR on Mar 7, 2006 15:56:37 GMT
I can see Harsig checking his track diagrams
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2006 16:23:29 GMT
Is it the tunnel that leads from the running lines at Stockwell and provides the route for the old depot line? Does this count as 'The City' side of the line, as in those days the other half would have been 'Hampstead Tube'.
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Post by CSLR on Mar 7, 2006 16:44:49 GMT
Is it the tunnel that leads from the running lines at Stockwell and provides the route for the old depot line? Does this count as 'The City' side of the line, as in those days the other half would have been 'Hampstead Tube'. I class anything between Euston and Clapham Common as the City side (sometimes even as far as Morden). As a result, Stockwell does qualify but, no this is not the old incline tunnel. All of the posted suggestions have been based on what you are seeing in the picture - an enlarged tunnel joining onto an original tunnel. Stockwell and Borough Junction are therefore perfectly sensible options as reconstructed tunnels would have met original tunnels at those points. As a suggestion, may I advise that the actual location is not too important. What I am looking for is what has happened here; and that was certainly influenced by something that happened elsewhere (clue). It might also help to consider what I said in the text that accompanied the picture (another clue).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2006 16:49:23 GMT
Is it actually the approach to King William St? The smaller tunnel looks like the opening to an air raid shelter and I remember reading somewhere that the former branch was used to stable rolling stock sometimes, but I don't know if it was actually enlarged.
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Post by coyote on Mar 7, 2006 16:49:50 GMT
London Bridge, the passage way from platforms to the old IMR, now a relay room.
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Post by CSLR on Mar 7, 2006 17:04:55 GMT
Is it actually the approach to King William St? The smaller tunnel looks like the opening to an air raid shelter and I remember reading somewhere that the former branch was used to stable rolling stock sometimes, but I don't know if it was actually enlarged. The tunnels to King William Street were used to stable rolling stock during the reconstruction. They were never enlarged. A few tunnel segments on that stretch of line were removed for access purposes (eg. to provide alternative access when it was used as an air-raid shelter). This photo is nothing to do with King William Street.
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Post by CSLR on Mar 7, 2006 17:08:15 GMT
London Bridge, the passage way from platforms to the old IMR, now a relay room. Not passageways at London Bridge but, this is close to a station. That probably will not help though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2006 17:17:18 GMT
Is the answer something along the lines of it being a test stretch of tunnel for something. It is a wild stab in the dark though!
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Post by CSLR on Mar 7, 2006 17:24:38 GMT
Is the answer something along the lines of it being a test stretch of tunnel for something. It is a wild stab in the dark though! Oh waland, you are so warm. If no-one else gets it, I think I will have to give it to you as being closest. It is actually not a test stretch, but think along those lines (or parallel to them). Does anyone recognise what the gap is between the two different sizes of tunnel or notice anything unusual about its shape?
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Post by amershamsi on Mar 7, 2006 17:54:33 GMT
it's one of them there air raid shelters that were going to become an express tube. son't know which one, but this seems to me to be one that never finished.
at a guess, Oval (can't remember off hand what ones were done)
Simon
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2006 18:13:42 GMT
I understand the chief feature of the enlargement work, and the one which made it economically possible was the retention and re-use of the original cast-iron lining, in which by doing so gave the new tunnel a slightly irregular shape. My guess is that this a sort of mock up tunnel to test the theory.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2006 18:19:40 GMT
I see there's a bit of platform that nobody has mentioned, also the tunnel isn't a Northern line running tunnel as it's too large. I have no idea where or what it is though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2006 18:23:01 GMT
Is it at Stockwell?
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Post by CSLR on Mar 7, 2006 18:57:51 GMT
I see there's a bit of platform that nobody has mentioned, also the tunnel isn't a Northern line running tunnel as it's too large. I have no idea where or what it is though. I do not think we are going to get any further with this so I will post the answer in a few moments. One point on Jim's comment. I can see what you mean particularly as there is nothing that easily scales the photograph. This is a running tunnel though and the thing that looks like a platform is just a concrete block that appears to have been added at a later date.
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Post by CSLR on Mar 7, 2006 19:10:11 GMT
Well done everyone, some of you were so close and all of the others posted answers that were completely credible. What you are looking at was part of a running tunnel that was enlarged to this point while the trains were still running. It would be part of a Northern Line running tunnel today had not something happened. With much of the enlargement completed, an incident occurred in November 1923 and the line was closed to all traffic. This not only allowed reconstruction work to continue day and night, but it meant that additional unplanned realignment could take place. In this instance, the company decided to alter the approach to Elephant & Castle station and put the platform on the other side of the station tunnel. What happened here is that they just stopped work and abandoned this part of the enlargement. This piece of running tunnel was then cut off by the concrete plug which is immediately behind the camera position. The present day tunnel comes in alongside this one and to the right. The large space between the two sections of tunnel is a shield chamber – the point at which work was stopped to allow the shield to be removed. The shield that had been used here was of a special design that allowed it to remain in place so that trains could run through it during the shortened traffic hours. To allow this to happen, the track levels on the enlarged and unenlarged sections had to be in-line with each other. That is why the shield was 'off-centre' - as you can see from the shape of the chamber - all of the space being at the top. I actually find it very strange that they bothered to remove the shield at this point, when it might have been just as easy to have continued the short distance to the station where it would have popped out of the wall! The result of this is that we now have this little time capsule recording a point where one of the special enlargement shields was operating. On one side is a section of tunnel that it completed but which was never used and other side is the section of tunnel that it was working towards before being told to stop.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2006 20:55:00 GMT
So, I guess there's a fair few of us who can score points here.
Thank's for that CSLR - I guess the underground has several places (as in querks) like this across the network. I for sure would have known nothing about this had you not posted it.
And you had us all guessing for quite a while....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2006 21:21:38 GMT
I personally found CSLR's photo and explanation quite fascinating, I hope he's got more in the tank so to speak, well done.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2006 21:25:47 GMT
I personally found CSLR's photo and explanation quite fascinating, I hope he's got more in the tank so to speak, well done. I'll second that and I'm sure CSLR will have some more somewhere!
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