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Post by alpinejohn on Jul 24, 2023 6:50:14 GMT
So trainstops must remain on the track between Harrow fast lines to Amersham for Chiltern, and Rayners Lane to Uxbridge for Piccadilly line trains. Correct - at least for now. Doubtless there are plans somewhere to eventually replace the signalling on the Piccadilly. Given the current TFL financial reality I suspect that will be delayed as long as possible - even it means providing somewhat less reliable service. However whenever that day dawns, the cost of just replacing like with like - with no improvement in capacity probably will finally justify moving to some version of moving block signalling. If that was being done right now then there might be a strong case for simply extending the sub surface system to the Piccadilly whilst the hardware installation and software programming expertise is still to hand. Sadly that window of opportunity is fast closing. However ERTMS is the preferred option on the mainline - so at such time as Chiltern gets funding for a signalling upgrade that may also need to be overlaid on the Amersham route into Marylebone at which point the trainstops could become largely redundant. By then I assume most movements for Permanent Way purposes will use LUL battery units equipped with the sub surface lines signalling system, with any exceptional movements covered under a possession. However technology is moving at such a fast pace, that who knows what will be the most cost effective/go to system on offer many years from now. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 24, 2023 20:00:02 GMT
]Some of the Chiltern Turbos still regularly reach 75mph and the GWR turbos still regularly reach 90mph. But if that is the case then why are the Chiltern Railways services also limited to 60mph on LUL tracks? Braking distances and overlaps for 60 mph ? As least I will guess this. The conventional signalling is track circuits, and track circuit and signals positions and lengths and overlaps are based around LT stock with 60 mph maximum speed. More than 60 mph may be unable to brake in time and position. No doubt one of our resident signalling principles experts may elucidate further. I feel sure that many years ago someone said (in a different thread, perhaps) that there were places on the Met Mainline where even 75mph was allowed. Perhaps only north of Amersham, and maybe on the newly widened four track sections between Harrow and Moor Park. I cannot prove these speed limits, but I can prove that 70 mph was allowed north of Chalfont & Latimer. This film of mine from the 1889 - 1989 Chesham Centenary Steam Train includes a 70 speed limit sign. Although it is only visible as a reflection in train window glass. The video below will (I hope!) start at 6 minutes 36 seconds |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 24, 2023 20:50:15 GMT
Used to be 70 north of Harrow North Junction to Amersham. Short of recalculating every overlap I'm not sure what they were signalled for, but I think they might not be considered adequate by today's requirements.
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Post by d7666 on Jul 24, 2023 21:57:12 GMT
Braking distances and overlaps for 60 mph ? As least I will guess this. o someone said (in a different thread, perhaps) that there were places on the Met Mainline where even 75mph was allowed. Perhaps only north of Amersham, and maybe on the newly widened four track sections between Harrow and Moor Park. I cannot prove these speed limits, but I can prove that 70 mph was allowed north of Chalfont & Latimer. This film of mine from the 1889 - 1989 Chesham Centenary Steam Train includes a 70 speed limit sign. I did say I was guessing. The question asked, and which I was answering , was " why are Chiltern trains (165s) limited to 60 mph" when their limit is 75 mph. Presence of a lineside 70 mph sign does not imply Chiltern trains can do 70 mph. Many locations, here and elsewhere, have stock by stock lower speed limits on different sections. All 70 mph on a lineside sign says is that is the absolute maximum for anything that does not have a specific limit restriction in that section. There are many sections on NR main line where traditional C1 gauge rolling 20 m stock (like a DMMU) operates without restriction, but newer stock, especially 23 m, has limits - or even prohibitions. 70 mph was the default maximum speed for traditional 1950s type BR mechanical DMU/DMMU however you wish to abbreviate them. They may, I do not know, have been permitted 70 mph. Guessing again, one reason 165 limited could be air suspension and that they are 23 m bodies, their kinematic envelope is different, and the clearances - and speed w.r.t. clearances especially through platforms - are affected by air suspension and the need to allow for deflated air bags. I did look through the relevant NR SA for any clues but there are none - although it did yield the piece of information that may only be of use in an anorak pub quiz - class 325 (EMU) are allowed over the Harrow < > Amersham section - when hauled. For those not initiated in these matters, a 325s are the Royal Mail owned EMU, and have all sorts of route clearances they are allowed to be loco hauled over. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 25, 2023 13:27:46 GMT
I did look through the relevant NR SA for any clues but there are none - although it did yield the piece of information that may only be of use in an anorak pub quiz - class 325 (EMU) are allowed over the Harrow < > Amersham section - when hauled. For those not initiated in these matters, a 325s are the Royal Mail owned EMU, and have all sorts of route clearances they are allowed to be loco hauled over. That 70 sign might even date from when loco-hauled trains from Marylebone to Manchester via Nottingham, Sheffield, etc plied this route. re: the 325's, if my memory is correct these are designed for both 25kV overhead and 750V third rail. But since the LU route is wired for four-rail trains they would need to be loco-hauled whilst travelling on LU metals. Also, their third rail power collection shoes can be lifted / raised when not required for use and I could be wrong but would be surprised if they were lowered (so that they make contact with the live rails) when travelling over LU metals. |
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Post by d7666 on Jul 25, 2023 15:57:34 GMT
I did look through the relevant NR SA for any clues but there are none - although it did yield the piece of information that may only be of use in an anorak pub quiz - class 325 (EMU) are allowed over the Harrow < > Amersham section - when hauled. For those not initiated in these matters, a 325s are the Royal Mail owned EMU, and have all sorts of route clearances they are allowed to be loco hauled over. That 70 sign might even date from when loco-hauled trains from Marylebone to Manchester via Nottingham, Sheffield, etc plied this route. re: the 325's, if my memory is correct these are designed for both 25kV overhead and 750V third rail. But since the LU route is wired for four-rail trains they would need to be loco-hauled whilst travelling on LU metals. Also, their third rail power collection shoes can be lifted / raised when not required for use and I could be wrong but would be surprised if they were lowered (so that they make contact with the live rails) when travelling over LU metals. Too many lines between lines have been read there. I never implied 325s would be drawing electric traction power on LU. I simply said loco hauled - and only that the EMU was not under it's own power was implied. Anyway AFAIK 325s shoes were removed quite a few blue moons ago, but maybe not the shoe beams, although the trainspotter books won't admit to that because the units are still nominally AC/DC. Possibly shoes removed before they were reinstated that time after being withdrawn and stored when the traditional GPO mail contract ceased in 2003. Pretty sure no 325 has had DC work since then, which is 20 years ago now. Significant digression. Back to subject, the 70 mph signage irrespective of what era it came from still does not imply a 165 can do more than 60 mph - and THAT is the subject from question that was asked. |
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Post by A60stock on Aug 2, 2023 15:28:10 GMT
Not sure if this is the right place to put this but it relates to ATO, including that on the SSR:
What is the reason that the Central line ATO system was designed to allow manual driving at full speed (and with full colour light signals) but other ATO systems on other lines, since switching over to ATO, do not allow full manual driving which is sufficient enough for passenger service?
For reference, I dont mean manual driving in the sense to move a train within depot, or when its an emergency because ATO has failed
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Post by t697 on Aug 2, 2023 15:45:08 GMT
You can manually drive the TBTC and CBTC lines' trains at line speed. Happy to acknowledge it may not be as easy as on the Central line and hence less easy to sustain the timetable.
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Post by d7666 on Aug 2, 2023 17:02:01 GMT
Not sure if this is the right place to put this but it relates to ATO, including that on the SSR: What is the reason that the Central line ATO system was designed to allow manual driving at full speed (and with full colour light signals) but other ATO systems on other lines, since switching over to ATO, do not allow full manual driving which is sufficient enough for passenger service? For reference, I dont mean manual driving in the sense to move a train within depot, or when its an emergency because ATO has failed I'll guess. CBTC and TBTC are moving block. Central is fixed block. I don't see how a train can move at full speed in non-ATO within moving block within all the many possible fault scenarios. |
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Sept 28, 2023 12:03:12 GMT
When is the District line section at Parsons Green and Putney Bridge due to have is control of signalling moved from Earls Court to Hammersmith SCC ?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 28, 2023 13:24:34 GMT
Work has been ongoing and recently speeded up.
New boundary signal posts at East Putney; new axle counter boxes; new signage covered; RM Hold boards added to Parsons Green siding etc.
No specific date yet, other than early-mid 2024.
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Post by t697 on Sept 28, 2023 16:32:10 GMT
If it really is commissioned early-mid '24 that makes it the next one!
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Post by A60stock on Sept 29, 2023 10:11:43 GMT
Hi All,
Sorry, I know this has been mentioned a few times but what is the latest on dates over the roll out of the new signalling onto the Met Main (north of Finchley Road)?
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Post by tomd on Sept 29, 2023 12:21:59 GMT
Work has been ongoing and recently speeded up. New boundary signal posts at East Putney; new axle counter boxes; new signage covered; RM Hold boards added to Parsons Green siding etc. No specific date yet, other than early-mid 2024. Similarly, do you have any information on the Barons Court to Stamford Brook section? |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Sept 29, 2023 17:37:20 GMT
The last CBTC signal Migration Area to be commissioned was on the District Line, SMA 7 Becontree to Upminster was on 18 March 2023 this was 39 months late.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 30, 2023 4:34:58 GMT
Weekend 7-8 October is testing SMA 9 (Preston Road-West Harrow/Moor Park)
MET: no service Wembley Park-Uxbridge/Watford/Amersham/Chesham;
PICC: no service South Harrow-Uxbridge
Saturday 11 November is a software update for Jubilee Line and sub-surface areas, with no trains until approximately 13.10:
Jubilee: no service 01.50-13.10
MET: no service Harrow-Aldgate until 13.10
District/H&C : no service until 13.10
Weekend 2-3 December is repeat of 7-8 October (SMA 9)
Weekend 16-17 December is testing SMA 8 (Finchley Road-Preston Road)
MET: no service Harrow-Aldgate
Jubilee: no service Stanmore-West Hampstead
Weekend 20-21 January is more SMA 14 installation work:
MET: no service Harrow-Uxbridge
PICC: no service South Harrow-Uxbridge
March 2024: repeat of 16-17 December (SMA 8)
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Post by jimbo on Sept 30, 2023 5:40:06 GMT
Didn't there used to be a ban on closures leading up to Christmas, due to high passenger demand at that time?
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Post by Chris M on Sept 30, 2023 7:13:54 GMT
In the past few years there have been 1-2 weekends in December with no line closures for engineering works.
This year the weekend of 9 and 10 December the only closure is the DLR between Canning Town and Beckton and a reduced Elizabeth line service early Sunday morning. There are no closures between Monday 18th and Friday 22rd of December (except on LO before 06:15 or after 23:45).
On Saturday 23rd the only closures are Canary Wharf to Poplar and Westferry on the DLR and Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction on LO.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Sept 30, 2023 8:54:05 GMT
Saturday 11 November is a software update for Jubilee Line and sub-surface areas, with no trains until approximately 13.10: Jubilee: no service 01.50-13.10 MET: no service Harrow-Aldgate until 13.10 District/H&C : no service until 13.10 This is actually a testing session, and it's a test that can only be done with a closure this big. |
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Sept 30, 2023 10:44:56 GMT
The TfL website shows no service until 1500 on the lines closed for the testing on Saturday 11 November 2023
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 6, 2023 17:08:22 GMT
The TfL website shows no service until 1500 on the lines closed for the testing on Saturday 11 November 2023 First train from Ealing: 13.15 First train from Richmond: 13.34 First train from Wimbledon: 13.27 First train from Olympia: 13.40 First train from Edgware Road: 13.35 First train from Upminster: 13.17 H&City:First trains from Hammersmith: 13.18 (C); 13.55 (H) First train from Edgware Road (Circle via High Street): 14.00 First WB train from Barking: 13.14 MET:First train NB from Aldgate: 14.13 (UX) First train NB from Baker Street 4: 13.36 (UX) First train SB from Harrow 6: 13.19 (BK) First train SB from Finchley Road: 13.24 (BK) Jubilee:First train from Stratford: 13.17 First NB train from Wembley Park: 13.26 First train from Stanmore: 13.13 First SB train from Neasden: 13.14 all passenger service trains |
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Oct 6, 2023 18:02:49 GMT
Thanks Dstock7080 , TfL website still showing no trains until 15:00
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Oct 15, 2023 17:45:24 GMT
Out of interest how far is the northern parts of the met away from being resignalled, I loose the plot on the detail of the dates. So do those of us working on the project! I'm not sure what the current programme date is for Harrow but I would imagine some time in 2025. There hasn't been any systems testing in SMAs 13 or 14 yet. Mod comment [goldenarrow]: Posts moved from 'Met Line suspension - Fri 13th' thread in Metropolitan line |
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Post by d7666 on Oct 15, 2023 19:00:01 GMT
Out of interest how far is the northern parts of the met away from being resignalled, I loose the plot on the detail of the dates. So do those of us working on the project! I'm not sure what the current programme date is for Harrow but I would imagine some time in 2025. There hasn't been any systems testing in SMAs 13 or 14 yet. Was there a plot to have lost in the first place ?  |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 16, 2023 2:19:07 GMT
Work has been ongoing and recently speeded up. New boundary signal posts at East Putney; new axle counter boxes; new signage covered; RM Hold boards added to Parsons Green siding etc. No specific date yet, other than early-mid 2024. Is this in conjuction with new Parsons Green sidings, or is that in a phase 2? TfL is due to move out of Lillie Bridge from 2024! |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 16, 2023 5:59:49 GMT
No work on new Parsons Green or Chiswick Park sidings has started yet.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Oct 16, 2023 6:44:52 GMT
Indeed so, both are at the high-level design phase at the moment. The Parsons Green design cannot be implemented under the existing signalling system and will need to be done following the commissioning of CBTC in that area. TfL is due to move out of Lillie Bridge from 2024! I think it is fairly safe to say this date had several dependencies, one of which being the 4LM programme. With the delay in 4LM this is likely to be delayed in consequence. |
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Post by A60stock on Oct 16, 2023 8:41:40 GMT
Out of interest how far is the northern parts of the met away from being resignalled, I loose the plot on the detail of the dates. So do those of us working on the project! I'm not sure what the current programme date is for Harrow but I would imagine some time in 2025. There hasn't been any systems testing in SMAs 13 or 14 yet. What about the line from Finchley Road to Preston Road, when does that switch over? |
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Post by d7666 on Oct 16, 2023 13:38:12 GMT
I think it is fairly safe to say this date had several dependencies, one of which being the 4LM programme. May I award you the understatement of the year prize ? |
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Post by t697 on Oct 16, 2023 16:58:33 GMT
Finchley Road to Preston Road - Some date to be announced, but later than Easter 2024 seems to be the current info.
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