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Post by david123 on Apr 9, 2023 8:41:21 GMT
Still on going I see all week, no Earl's Court to Olympia shuttle, however, when things go wrong on the other lines, trains still go to Oympia, seen countless Oympia trains this week!
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Post by youngmale1967 on Apr 9, 2023 8:50:22 GMT
Everything still there, the room has one desk controlling Parsons Green & Putney Bridge. We still input information to WARS computer for Network Rail. I believe by next month there be no managers based at the Earls Court control room. Just awaiting date for closures to be displaced to cabins only handful left or other grades until we called to go to Hammersmith SCC Parsons Green desk 2023 |
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
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Post by Colin on Apr 9, 2023 9:00:28 GMT
Still on going I see all week, no Earl's Court to Olympia shuttle, however, when things go wrong on the other lines, trains still go to Oympia, seen countless Oympia trains this week! There is an ongoing issue with the points from platform 4 at Earls Court towards West Kensington/Olympia which means trains can't be routed that way; all trains through Earls Court platform 4 must currently be routed towards the Wimbledon branch only. The Olypmia shuttle runs from High Street Kensington and so must go through platform 4 at Earls Court, hence it cannot operate. Trains you've seen going to Olympia would have done so via platform 3 at Earls Court (either by reversing at Earls Court from platform 2 or having arrived from Gloucester Road) as the route from Earls Court platform 3 is unaffected. |
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Post by jimbo on Apr 10, 2023 21:16:50 GMT
Everything still there, the room has one desk controlling Parsons Green & Putney Bridge. We still input information to WARS computer for Network Rail. I believe by next month there be no managers based at the Earls Court control room. Just awaiting date for closures to be displaced to cabins only handful left or other grades until we called to go to Hammersmith SCC Parsons Green desk 2023 Are the other desks still there but decommissioned? Or does the Parsons Green desk sit alone in that big circular space? Would make a good film set for mission control! |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Apr 11, 2023 0:11:01 GMT
No the Parsons Green desk does not sit alone. Have you ever been on a film set and seen the large number of crew, make up people , lighting rigging, extra’s not least the Actors.
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Post by brigham on Apr 11, 2023 7:42:34 GMT
True enough.
The number of people 'just out of shot' on a film set is often large.
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Post by JR 15secs on Apr 12, 2023 9:49:27 GMT
Are the other desks still there but decommissioned? Or does the Parsons Green desk sit alone in that big circular space? Would make a good film set for mission control! The same happened at Cobourg St when the Golders desk was the last one all other desks just sitting there. I can't remember though about the Vic line desk I think it was about to be removed for preservation which happened around that time. |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Apr 12, 2023 11:22:25 GMT
The Victoria Line signalling desk from Cobourg Street, Euston was removed and reassembled in a EMU at a Museum near Coventry Airport, this has now closed and the EMU is now at the Colne Valley Railway , Yeldham Road, Castle Hedingham, Essex, CO9 3DZ.
The Victoria Line Desk has been rewired and will be open to the public on the second Sunday of the month, the next date is the 14 May 2023 at the Colne Valley Railway .
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 15, 2023 11:04:50 GMT
now into the 5th weekend without the Olympia services operating!
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
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Post by Colin on Apr 15, 2023 18:16:47 GMT
now into the 5th weekend without the Olympia services operating! And impacting greatly on our ability to train new drivers! |
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Post by youngmale1967 on Apr 27, 2023 7:00:57 GMT
Looks that 32 points working today as Train 15 was routed from platform 4 to reverse Olympia due to late running of the train
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 27, 2023 9:06:19 GMT
Recommissioned Monday evening.
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 9, 2023 10:07:53 GMT
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Post by brigham on May 10, 2023 7:43:11 GMT
"...it has been decided to de-scope the project..."
Cancel? Postpone? Abort or abandon?
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 10, 2023 8:33:38 GMT
Three of those words are probably most accurate.
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Post by roman80 on Jun 8, 2023 13:39:08 GMT
The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA), which approves and oversees merger and acquisition deals touching the UK has released a statement today re Hitachi and Thales merging some aspects of their business. The statement speaks to reduced competition. I've added the first few paragraphs of their statement below. Full link here: www.gov.uk/government/news/merger-could-mean-network-rail-and-tfl-lose-out-on-digital-signalling-options[Moderators, I have never started a new thread before and the link on the tutorial page 'creating a post' has a link to 'creating a thread' site which ends at a 'site cannot be reached' page. Please can you place this post where you deem best as at best tangentially related to the SSR Resignalling topic] An investigation by the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) has provisionally concluded that Hitachi’s €1.7 billion proposed acquisition of the Thales’ Ground Transportation (GTS) business could lead to a substantial lessening of competition in the supply of digital mainline and urban signalling rail systems. Signalling systems are a core part of railway infrastructure, helping to maintain passenger safety by controlling the movement of trains and maximising capacity on railway networks. Hitachi Rail Ltd (Hitachi) and Thales SA’s Ground Transportation business (Thales) are two of the leading global suppliers of signalling systems for mainline and urban railway networks (alongside Siemens and Alstom). Network Rail, the primary customer for mainline signalling systems in Great Britain (GB), is planning to upgrade much of the country’s rail signalling system over the next decade, deploying new digital technologies. Transport for London (TfL), which oversees London Underground, the largest urban rail system in the country, is also expected to begin replacing the signalling systems on two of London’s main underground lines over a similar period. Historically, a very small number of suppliers have dominated the provision of both mainline and urban rail signalling systems in the UK. |
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Post by f73a on Jun 8, 2023 18:17:52 GMT
I'm a bit shocked to see "two of London's main underground lines". I was under the impression that it was solely the Piccadilly line that had signalling upgrade aspirations outside of those already committed. Is a decade long enough to see another line being planned on top of the Picc?
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Post by d7666 on Jun 8, 2023 20:11:17 GMT
I'm a bit shocked to see "two of London's main underground lines". I was under the impression that it was solely the Piccadilly line that had signalling upgrade aspirations outside of those already committed. Is a decade long enough to see another line being planned on top of the Picc? I couldn't possibly comment. Other than to suggest "aspirations" are for ALL lines to be at least ATO irrespective of GoA level (which is a political issue). |
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Post by jimbo on Jun 8, 2023 20:26:18 GMT
The Picc & Bakerloo are the last lines with traditional signalling and are also due for new trains. There is an aspiration for a common digital signalling system and combined control centre. The Bakerloo resignalling would ideally be linked with the Lewisham extension project, but can it wait that long? The Central and Waterloo & City Lines were also included in the NTfL project as originally envisaged, but timelines seem to have slipped! The W&City also relies on conventional signalling.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 12, 2023 7:37:33 GMT
Resignalling through to Upminster was commissioned earlier this year, with a potential 5% to 10% saving in running times, which would save a train or two. So why must a new timetable to take advantage of this wait until early 2025? (Source Programmes and Investment Committee meeting papers for 19 July 2023 at two points.) board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s20440/pic-20230719-item10-Part1-LU-FLM-Programme.pdf |
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Post by joshua on Jul 22, 2023 12:49:29 GMT
... 70 mph north of Harrow would be beneficial, I don't think there is any point in going faster, North of Ricky northbound S stock could probably be opened up to run faster but Chiltern are slower than S stock now. I am not sure about Class 165's being slower... When new basic Class 165 (Chiltern Turbo) units were designed for a 75MPH (120kph) top speed likewise the maximum designed speed for the Bombardier S8 is 62MPH(100kph). I realise that the Turbos will not accelerate quite as fast as the S8 stock especially in poor rail adhesion conditions and that like many older vehicles the Class 165's may now struggle to reliably achieve that top speed now. Inevitably that makes timetabling decisions and programming line speeds for the S8 stock an interesting challenge on the shared route. To optimise traffic flow on a Network Rail/LUL shared route it seems likely that someone will have developed accelleration and braking profiles to work out just how close different rolling stock could operate on the shared route whilst avoiding wasteful bunching and excessive braking. This optimisation may explain why it makes sense to keep the S8 target speed at 100kph lower than the top speed on the same route allowed for the Chiltern Turbos. Some of the Chiltern Turbos still regularly reach 75mph and the GWR turbos still regularly reach 90mph. But if that is the case then why are the Chiltern Railways services also limited to 60mph on LUL tracks? |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 22, 2023 13:29:55 GMT
Chiltern trains have to operate on existing legacy signalling, trainstops, overlaps etc.
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Post by ijmad on Jul 22, 2023 20:15:58 GMT
Sorry if this has been answered already, but will the S8's have tripcock equipment removed once the Met is fully transitioned?
Seems unlikely they'd ever wander out to western District lands at least in passenger service. Do any ever make it to Acton Works?
Edit: sorry, wrote western instead of eastern!
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 22, 2023 23:30:25 GMT
Perhaps you mean the western end of the District? As the eastern end is already CBTC commissioned.
It was expected that tripcock removal would happen once all areas were completed.
I’m pretty certain an S8 has never visited Acton Works but has been to Ealing Common depot and Northfields.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 22, 2023 23:57:09 GMT
It makes sense, when the Met is resignalled, to removed S8 tripcocks to avoid maintenance costs. If Neasden maintenance facilities are ever compromised then transfer to Upminster Depot could still be done. If a transfer to the west end of the District was ever required, a tripcock could be fitted to that train. That is the way the original Victoria Line trains dealt with that situation.
The new Acton building for Central Line train conversion was justified as being used for S stock fleet maintenance later, but facilities are still being fitted out at Neasden!
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Post by alpinejohn on Jul 23, 2023 7:01:29 GMT
However as Dstock7080 mentions above the Chiltern services rely on conventional signals and tripcocks - so that will limit the extent to which savings can be had by the removal of trip-cocks from Met line tracks - assuming LUL does not have an agreement with Chiltern for someone to install CBTC in their fleet.
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Post by d7666 on Jul 23, 2023 15:33:57 GMT
However as Dstock7080 mentions above the Chiltern services rely on conventional signals and tripcocks - so that will limit the extent to which savings can be had by the removal of trip-cocks from Met line tracks - assuming LUL does not have an agreement with Chiltern for someone to install CBTC in their fleet. AFAIK no agreement to fit CBTC *** to any main line*** stock; it was looked at, no idea why not proceeded with but almost certainly cost. As I posted before Chilterns ATP (*not* provided for the Amersham / Harrow sectipn) was a Thales ex Alcatel legacy system, and, had it been one revision level higher than it was, could have been upgraded; that ATP version is not compatible, and, as also posted by me a few weeks back, Chiltern ATP has now been turned off. *** by which I mean Thales Seltrac CBTC for LU; Crossrail is CBTC but uses a different CBTC supplied by Siemens; obviously the underlying principles are the same but the product specific detail and IPR are not. |
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Post by d7666 on Jul 23, 2023 15:44:02 GMT
]Some of the Chiltern Turbos still regularly reach 75mph and the GWR turbos still regularly reach 90mph. But if that is the case then why are the Chiltern Railways services also limited to 60mph on LUL tracks? Braking distances and overlaps for 60 mph ? As least I will guess this. The conventional signalling is track circuits, and track circuit and signals positions and lengths and overlaps are based around LT stock with 60 mph maximum speed. More than 60 mph may be unable to brake in time and position. No doubt one of our resident signalling principles experts may elucidate further. |
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Jul 23, 2023 19:26:03 GMT
assuming LUL does not have an agreement with Chiltern for someone to install CBTC in their fleet. As my learned colleague d7666 has posted, there's no agreement to fit CBTC onto any main line stock. Even if there was, the agreement would not be with Chiltern but with the Rolling Stock Leasing Company who actually owns it. ]Some of the Chiltern Turbos still regularly reach 75mph and the GWR turbos still regularly reach 90mph. But if that is the case then why are the Chiltern Railways services also limited to 60mph on LUL tracks? Braking distances and overlaps for 60 mph ? Most of the signalling in that area would have been designed to the 1955 overlap formula - a 60mph overlap on level gradient would work out at about 476m and for 70mph would be nearly 650m. Using the current 2008 formula would result in a slightly shorter overlap. Others who are more experienced in overlap calculation than I am might suggest that some of the existing overlaps are probably a little short for 60mph today, but part of the justification in a multi-aspect area could be that it is unlikely a driver will fail to react to previous cautionary aspects and trip at line speed. (Though obviously this did happen with the incident at Chalfont a few years ago.) The braking distances from the first cautionary aspect to a red tend to be quite generous and would appear to have been calculated on a very low brake rate appropriate for steam traction, possibly with some additional allowances for brake build-up along the train (the standard Newton's laws of motion equations assume deceleration rate is constant and instantaneous). There are, of course, other factors which would need to be considered before permitting an increase in speed - track is designed for specific speeds, particularly around curves and any increase in line speed would need to be assessed for things like cant. |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 23, 2023 20:58:38 GMT
So trainstops must remain on the track between Harrow fast lines to Amersham for Chiltern, and Rayners Lane to Uxbridge for Piccadilly line trains.
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