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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 20, 2023 12:32:14 GMT
Has the speed limit for trains entering platform 5 been removed ? The 15mph over the points approaching all platforms has been removed. Platform 5 entry yesterday was 22mph, passing over the former 10mph trainstop. However, entry into platform 4 today was 11mph! As an aside, the platform (and ticket hall) indicators at Upminster now work better, with time countdown and first platform departure, with countdown of that departure on all screens. Generally all describers in CBTC much better!  |
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vincenture
Quiz tryhard, and an advocate for simpler, less complicated rail routes
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Post by vincenture on Mar 20, 2023 16:11:44 GMT
Impressive, thank you for the update. Hope to see more enthusiast videos on this stretch of the line soon  |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Mar 20, 2023 21:20:48 GMT
Tripcocks are mounted on the shoebeam which is effectively rigidly located on the axleboxes. The only lateral motion (sway) is that of the wheel flanges between the gauge faces of the rails. But at tripcock testers, check rails are provided to control the lateral motion. The provision of check rail hasn't been a requirement for several years now. The first to not have them were at Ladbroke Grove in 2012 (when they were converted from temporary installations to permanent). |
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 20, 2023 21:33:00 GMT
Last year I went to Hacton Lane (near to Upminster Bridge station) to film trains from the bridge over the railway, it was a lovely sunny spring day and I'm planning to return this year, when (this time) the signals will be wearing black plastic hoods.
However, as a general theme I'm not sure that video footage from bridges over the railway which are close to stations will show very much difference.
Whilst on that outing I also filmed a few of the station starters, etc, so that I would have prototype images for railway modelling. I noted how some signals did not seem to be as tall as usual plus had metal mesh around them - presumably to keep railway staff (changing bulbs, etc) from accidentally getting too close to 25kV overhead wires!
I also have some footage from inside trains but mostly these were C2C trains - or D stock trains.
I'll have to review everything I filmed!
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Post by 100andthirty on Mar 21, 2023 6:28:43 GMT
Tripcocks are mounted on the shoebeam which is effectively rigidly located on the axleboxes. The only lateral motion (sway) is that of the wheel flanges between the gauge faces of the rails. But at tripcock testers, check rails are provided to control the lateral motion. The provision of check rail hasn't been a requirement for several years now. The first to not have them were at Ladbroke Grove in 2012 (when they were converted from temporary installations to permanent). Thanks for the correction Tom. To be fair, one of the benefits of siting tripcock testers in platforms is that speed is low. |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Mar 21, 2023 6:38:54 GMT
Never seen a Tripcock tester anywhere other than in a platform ?
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Post by bazza55 on Mar 21, 2023 7:39:18 GMT
Has the speed limit for trains entering platform 5 been removed ? The 15mph over the points approaching all platforms has been removed. Platform 5 entry yesterday was 22mph, passing over the former 10mph trainstop. However, entry into platform 4 today was 11mph! As an aside, the platform (and ticket hall) indicators at Upminster now work better, with time countdown and first platform departure, with countdown of that departure on all screens. Generally all describers in CBTC much better! Speed into Platform 3 was very low - 7mph on an arrival around 4:15pm!! And despite the low frequency timetable - still came to a stand after leaving Upminster Bridge awaiting a path into Upminster on one of my runs. Strangely Dagenham East to Elm pArk was did not exceed 50mph on both runs. I am presuming the ATO system selected this lower speed to meet the timetable? |
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Post by programmes1 on Mar 21, 2023 8:10:12 GMT
Never seen a Tripcock tester anywhere other than in a platform ? I seem to remember reading that there was a tester at Uxbridge sidings or perhaps somewhere else. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 21, 2023 9:50:46 GMT
Speed into Platform 3 was very low - 7mph on an arrival around 4:15pm!! And despite the low frequency timetable - still came to a stand after leaving Upminster Bridge awaiting a path into Upminster on one of my runs. Don't forget that at Upminster there are depot reception roads beyond the platforms. The presence of a train on these roads may impact the arrival speed of a terminating train. Also, just because the service frequency may be low it doesn't guarantee free platforms at Upminster as trains can come out of the depot to enter service at any time of the day. Trains may also be laid over in a platform (ie, if it's arrived out of turn, it's being used to swap out a defective train or there's no driver available to move it) and so that creates a platform lost situation. |
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Post by bazza55 on Mar 21, 2023 10:29:44 GMT
Yes. Of course. Just noting my experience on that run there. There didn't appear to be anything beyond us on P3 at the time looking as far as the eye can see.
I have now recorded a few runs under full ATO. Westbound Upminster to West Ham the total sum of fastest recorded ATO times recorded is 20min 06 seconds compared with 22mins 27 seconds for the fastest recorded manually driven times. That is a potential time saving of almost 2.5 minutes. All down to faster acceleration and higher top speeds on most sections. ATO braking rates are slower than achieved by many drivers so the time improvements due to the faster acceleration and top speed include a small amount of time lost under braking. The real difference is when you average out the manually driven times over a number of runs and compare them to average ATO times. Then the difference is really noticeable. Average manual driving times are almost 23 minutes over the same section.
​The timetable schedules 28.5 minutes including dwell times. So twelve stations with a scheduled dwell time of 20 seconds would add four minutes to the running time. So 24 to 25 mins achievable on dry rails with no trains too close ahead. Looks like Barking and West Ham stops may allow for greater dwell times than just 20 seconds. And it isn't clear how much 'recovery time is built in to the timetable for delays or degraded running.
Will take a few more runs peak and off/peak to build up a bigger picture. But the potential is there for some worthwhile journey time savings to be made.
Does anyone have an idea of the optimum minimum headway before journey times start increasing due to trains catching others up. I'm guessing the bottleneck is the slower running sections and short station to station distances within the tunnels and the junction at Aldgate East awaiting paths onto the outer or inner rail.
Mod edit [goldenarrow]: Quote removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Mar 21, 2023 11:12:00 GMT
Dwell times at Barking be may longer due to C2C and Overground passengers changing trains also because its a crew relief point. West Ham also has interchange with C2C, Jubilee Line and Docklands Light Railway trains. Also the narrow staircase as the west end of the District Line is also a bottleneck.
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Tom
Administrator
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Post by Tom on Mar 21, 2023 20:21:51 GMT
Thanks for the correction Tom. To be fair, one of the benefits of siting tripcock testers in platforms is that speed is low. Absolutely; though there was one in Turnham Green EB Fast platform for a while to test freight trains coming from Richmond towards the Midland Goods Yard at High Street Kensington. How that tester operated with Piccadilly line trains passing at speed is still a mystery! Never seen a Tripcock tester anywhere other than in a platform ? I seem to remember reading that there was a tester at Uxbridge sidings or perhaps somewhere else. There was indeed; removed in 2004. |
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Post by programmes1 on Mar 22, 2023 8:35:47 GMT
Thanks I found where I read it yellow peril 7(1) 1953.
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Chris L
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Post by Chris L on Mar 22, 2023 11:07:14 GMT
Rode from Embankment to Upminster yesterday mid afternoon.
The journey seems much faster once out into the open air.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 22, 2023 12:53:07 GMT
Dwell times at Barking be may longer due to C2C and Overground passengers changing trains also because its a crew relief point. But since the opening of the Barking Riverside extension Overground trains normally use platforms 7 / 8 - which means that cross-platform interchange is now largely an historic feature. However, whilst platform 1 is rarely used its kept open because its the only platform to have a lift up to the ticket hall. Access from here to the other platforms is via an underpass (at the far end of the platforms) that has ramps, not steps. One 'issue' with this arrangement is that it adds 'quite a few minutes' to journey times - which is a problem for some passengers, and with the desire of TfL to discontinue one day travelcard tickets will lead to an increase in wheelchair users falling victim of journey time limits. |
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Post by bazza55 on Mar 22, 2023 16:03:03 GMT
Rode from Embankment to Upminster yesterday mid afternoon. The journey seems much faster once out into the open air. It is much faster -56mph between most stops now and a much improved acceleration curve above 20mph to reach higher speeds. |
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Post by bazza55 on Mar 22, 2023 16:13:00 GMT
Re: Upminster depot - when is the depot now expected to go full CBTC? Has leaving the depot legacy signalled created any operational issues?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 22, 2023 16:23:59 GMT
There are no plans to extend CBTC into Upminster depot.
There are no signals in the depot, points are controlled from the Tower panel.
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towerman
My status is now now widower
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Post by towerman on Mar 22, 2023 17:38:50 GMT
Are there no plans to put in shunt signals like they have at Neasden & SMD?
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Post by jimbo on Mar 22, 2023 19:33:15 GMT
No
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Mar 22, 2023 23:19:09 GMT
Train movements inside Upminster depot by Fleet staff in the Control Tower using train radio. There are some emergency stop lights which can show a red light.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 23, 2023 19:46:06 GMT
Neasden was a special case, a very large depot with a terrible accident record. Signalled depots have been equipped when built in more recent times. No other depots have been signalled with an upgrade, except Hammersmith & Lillie Bridge, now just sidings.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 24, 2023 4:30:17 GMT
I wonder what it is like now at the Earl's Court signal control centre which looks after Parsons Green only. Is it still the large room with only one desk occupied? Does the line diagram now only show the Parsons Green area? It must be eerily quiet compared to its heyday, and an odd place to work! How much longer will this continue?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 24, 2023 6:20:32 GMT
Is it still the large room with only one desk occupied? Does the line diagram now only show the Parsons Green area? Yes exactly, one signal operator and one Manager, board has been crudely masked to leave PG as the operational area. |
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Post by A60stock on Mar 24, 2023 11:30:51 GMT
Was on the met the other day between Finchley and Wembley and the speedometer on my phone clocked up to 66mph (yes I know its not perfectly accurate but the train was going very quick). When the line goes to ATO, what speed will the the maximum the trains will be able to do on the fast sections between FInchley road and Moor Park?
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Post by bazza55 on Mar 24, 2023 13:14:30 GMT
It was planned to be mainly 100 kph (62mph) . Mainly 50 and 60mph at present. I've been in the cab of an S8 with the controller fully open - 63mph was the maximum it could reach.
Gone are the days of A Stock doing 70+ mph!
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 24, 2023 14:13:02 GMT
Gone are the days of A Stock doing 70+ mph! For the A stock RIP  For speeds 70+ mph |
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Post by londonboi1985 on Mar 24, 2023 15:34:05 GMT
I presume this is because of sway. A tripcock tester requires the tripcock to pass through a relatively small aperture with a small margin of error. At a higher speed, the greater the likelihood that a working tripcock will be positioned incorrectly for the tester. Not really Bayswater had a slow approach when that went live. Now trains arrive at full speed and depart at full speed and teh testers are still in place. |
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Post by youngmale1967 on Mar 24, 2023 15:54:58 GMT
Is it still the large room with only one desk occupied? Does the line diagram now only show the Parsons Green area? Yes exactly, one signal operator and one Manager, board has been crudely masked to leave PG as the operational area. Everything still there, the room has one desk controlling Parsons Green & Putney Bridge. We still input information to WARS computer for Network Rail. I believe by next month there be no managers based at the Earls Court control room. Just awaiting date for closures to be displaced to cabins only handful left or other grades until we called to go to ![]() Hammersmith SCC |
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Post by ijmad on Mar 24, 2023 22:22:48 GMT
Sounds like it could be a lonely job from now on!
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