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Post by jimbo on May 15, 2022 22:16:18 GMT
With completion of most planned resignalling, other than on the Metropolitan line, when can we expect the introduction of Night Tube services, originally promised at that time. The District could operate services between Barking and Ealing Broadway, and also Edgware Road to Wimbledon. I understand there is a problem with operating over Network Rail to Richmond. A service from Hammersmith via Baker Street could link in to terminate at Tower Hill middle platform, else at Aldgate if the new layout there is still to be commissioned. But perhaps current funding uncertainty will restrict introduction of new services for a while!
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Post by Chris L on May 16, 2022 5:37:19 GMT
With completion of most planned resignalling, other than on the Metropolitan line, when can we expect the introduction of Night Tube services, originally promised at that time. The District could operate services between Barking and Ealing Broadway, and also Edgware Road to Wimbledon. I understand there is a problem with operating over Network Rail to Richmond. A service from Hammersmith via Baker Street could link in to terminate at Tower Hill middle platform, else at Aldgate if the new layout there is still to be commissioned. But perhaps current funding uncertainty will restrict introduction of new services for a while! Barking is not staffed by LUL. In addition there is no provision to close off the main line areas. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 17, 2022 1:16:22 GMT
]Barking is not staffed by LUL. In addition there is no provision to close off the main line areas. Doesn't mean night tube services can't be run. It's never been an issue on Boxing day or when we've run overnight services in the past with no c2c services running (ie, Olympic's, New Years eve, etc). Same applies at Upminster. |
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Post by jimbo on May 17, 2022 3:51:42 GMT
Mile End and Hammersmith open for Night Tube with no District Line at present. Stratford open for Night Tube on Central Line without barriers to main line platforms.
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Post by gigabit on May 19, 2022 6:20:53 GMT
Towards the City/Edgware Road |
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Post by gigabit on Jun 1, 2022 10:20:04 GMT
I note at Earls Court the platform indicators now say “Held” when a train is stopped and the signs flash “INFORMATION UPDATE” when the platform changes which is a good change.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 1, 2022 11:42:48 GMT
Matisa Tamping machine TMM776 has entered Ruislip depot sheds for fitment of CBTC equipment.
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vincenture
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Post by vincenture on Jun 8, 2022 7:51:06 GMT
Previous proposals for Night Tube on SSR was Aldgate to Harrow-on-the-Hill, Barking to Wimbledon and Hammersmith to Tower Hill. Can take this as a point of reference.
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vincenture
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Post by vincenture on Jun 8, 2022 8:11:18 GMT
Hearing from my Test Train colleagues that during this weekends SMA 6/7 testing that trains were comfortably achieving 100kph (interpreted as 62mph in train cabs), between Stepney Green and Upminster. Can’t wait to see rail enthusiasts posting 100kph between Dagenham East and Elm Park, and between Upney and Becontree. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 8, 2022 19:53:55 GMT
Previous proposals for Night Tube on SSR was Aldgate to Harrow-on-the-Hill, Barking to Wimbledon and Hammersmith to Tower Hill. Can take this as a point of reference. Is that Hammersmith - Tower Hill via Victoria or via Shepherds Bush? If it is via Shepherds Bush then will it be a Circle or H&C service? Either way, it will be a convoluted 'new thing' for people who wish to travel further east and must change trains at Tower Hill. |
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vincenture
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Post by vincenture on Jun 10, 2022 5:02:01 GMT
Previous proposals for Night Tube on SSR was Aldgate to Harrow-on-the-Hill, Barking to Wimbledon and Hammersmith to Tower Hill. Can take this as a point of reference. Is that Hammersmith - Tower Hill via Victoria or via Shepherds Bush? If it is via Shepherds Bush then will it be a Circle or H&C service? Either way, it will be a convoluted 'new thing' for people who wish to travel further east and must change trains at Tower Hill. My bad, I have forgotten to mention that it's via King's Cross St. Pancras. Yes it will be a new thing, it's more of a H&C service so Circle line would be closed. I doubt the Edgware Road to Earl's Court section will be that well used at night, considering that from Notting Hill Gate to Edgware Road their alternative stations will be on the Central line and a short walk. High Street Kensington would be the only station. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 10, 2022 22:12:33 GMT
My bad, I have forgotten to mention that it's via King's Cross St. Pancras. Yes it will be a new thing, it's more of a H&C service so Circle line would be closed. I doubt the Edgware Road to Earl's Court section will be that well used at night, considering that from Notting Hill Gate to Edgware Road their alternative stations will be on the Central line and a short walk. High Street Kensington would be the only station. Ah, I thought it might be via Shepherds Bush and King's Cross St. Pancras, as otherwise this route would be un-served and the route via Victoria somewhat over-served. It will be interesting to see whether more passengers feel better served by trains travelling via Aldgate to Tower Hill (thereby maintaining easier Circle line connections) or via Aldgate East - so as to maintain easier east - west interchange with the District line for through journeys in the Barking direction. Quite possibly the decision to send trains via Aldgate was solely dictated by the changed track layout at Whitechapel. It was always my thought that at a minimum a central reversing track should have been retained here. As per White City, Arnos Grove, Loughton. As for Tower Hill being used as a terminus for this new service, I assume therefore that the bay platform can now be served by trains which arrive and depart at the eastern end of the station.* Otherwise, well lets see what happens and how it affects service reliability. *(this is despite everything I've read and seen with my own eyes in the recent past, which has suggested that this is not now happening.) Thanks for the reply Simon |
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Post by Colin on Jun 10, 2022 23:25:40 GMT
As for Tower Hill being used as a terminus for this new service, I assume therefore that the bay platform can now be served by trains which arrive and depart at the eastern end of the station. At the moment trains can only reverse east to west at Tower Hill. It was always intended to be able to reverse west to east at Tower Hill when CBTC went live but there was issue with the points to the east of the station and they were partially removed to allow for investigation & remedial work. I believe the plan is to re-instate the missing parts in July with a view to fully commissioning the west to east reverse move in October. |
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Post by vincenture on Jun 11, 2022 18:41:58 GMT
Hope all rectification and installation works go smoothly! Since CBTC is not introduced to Harrow-on-the-Hill, I assume that Night Tube will only start when SMA6 opens, which will be Barking to Earl's Court at the very least. The H&C I can envision that before a Hammersmith to Tower Hill service would instead be Hammersmith to West Ham (assuming that the Tower Hill west to east reversal would not be available by then).
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 11, 2022 19:10:46 GMT
Hope all rectification and installation works go smoothly! Since CBTC is not introduced to Harrow-on-the-Hill, I assume that Night Tube will only start when SMA6 opens, which will be Barking to Earl's Court at the very least. The H&C I can envision that before a Hammersmith to Tower Hill service would instead be Hammersmith to West Ham (assuming that the Tower Hill west to east reversal would not be available by then). In many ways West Ham - or Plaistow - would make sense, although I suppose one (or several?) extra trains would be needed in service and it means passengers wanting the District line must interchange at either Aldgate East or Whitechapel. Whitechapel would be easier - simple cross platform, fully accessible - but to help minimise passenger waiting time it is important that if trains are at the station at the same time then train drivers must wait to give passengers the time they need to interchange (instead of waiting for the other train to start opening its doors to initiate 'doors closure' on your train). |
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Post by Colin on Jun 11, 2022 19:21:41 GMT
I don't suppose anyone at TfL has even looked at what may or may not be provided in terms of night tube on the SSR yet.
I think that's still some way down the line at the moment. Let's get CBTC sorted first!
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Post by goldenarrow on Jun 26, 2022 14:57:10 GMT
Several posts relating to the historic train describers at Earl's Court have been moved to the 'Earl's Court describers' thread within District Line
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 26, 2022 22:31:27 GMT
Hearing from my Test Train colleagues that during this weekends SMA 6/7 testing that trains were comfortably achieving 100kph (interpreted as 62mph in train cabs), between Stepney Green and Upminster. Can’t wait to see rail enthusiasts posting 100kph between Dagenham East and Elm Park, and between Upney and Becontree. So what speeds do they normally achieve? There are a lot of long straight sections where they probably could gain 80mph between some stations. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 27, 2022 4:09:23 GMT
So what speeds do they normally achieve? There are a lot of long straight sections where they probably could gain 80mph between some stations. Current maximum line speed in that area is 45mph, and S7 governed to 48mph in manual (weak-field) areas. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 27, 2022 23:23:15 GMT
80 mph for an electric urban train would be great - and should apply on the Met Main Line too! (Only for the S stock, as Chilterns can reach at least 90 mph)
60 mph is so 'steam train era' for the top speed of a train!
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Post by 35b on Jun 28, 2022 15:34:00 GMT
80 mph for an electric urban train would be great - and should apply on the Met Main Line too! (Only for the S stock, as Chilterns can reach at least 90 mph) 60 mph is so 'steam train era' for the top speed of a train! I believe that the 165/0 units used by Chiltern are only permitted 75mph. When I’ve used them on the Met & GC, it would be a stretch to say that they could reach even that. |
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Post by metman on Jun 28, 2022 17:22:46 GMT
Yes the 165/0 are rated to 75mph with their GWR cousins rated to 90mph I believe.
The S stock as we know are restricted to 62mph as we know.
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Post by bazza55 on Jul 1, 2022 11:47:46 GMT
So what speeds do they normally achieve? There are a lot of long straight sections where they probably could gain 80mph between some stations. Current maximum line speed in that area is 45mph, and S7 governed to 48mph in manual (weak-field) areas. I recently recorded some GPS data from Upminster eastbound. Maximum speed recorded was 42mph but in some cases as little as 32mph is the maximum between stations. The maximums are : Upminster to Upminster Bridge 43mph, to Hornchurch 40mph, to Elm Park 40mph, to Dagenham East 43mph, to Dagenham Heathway 39mph, to Becontree 42mph, to Upney 39mph, To Barking 37mph, to East Ham 38mph, to Upton Park 37mph, to Plaistow 36mph, To West Ham 32mph It is hard to see 100kph achieved over any stretch other than Elm Park to Dagenham East - based on current S8 downhill performance from Chorleywood to Rickmansworth. There the S-Stock takes almost a mile to reach 60 in 75 seconds. Add in 5%G braking immediately and that would take around 2.29 km just shy of the 2.37 km for that stretch. The only other stretch as long as that is Barking to East Ham - though the curvature around East Ham depot limits speed achievable there. To reach 80mph between stations - the fastest commuter trains as a guide are the Class 345's and I calculate from recorded Class 345 performance you would need 2.55km to accelerate to 80mph and brake immediately at 5%G back to zero again. I can't imagine an ATO 'uncapped' S Stock accelerating anywhere near as fast to 60mph. By my calculations - a 345 running over 2.55km with a maximum speed of 80mph vs running at 60mph would only yield a saving of 5s! Clearly the accountants know how much extra it costs to provide the additional energy to reach 80mph vs 60mph and how much extra wear and tear there is to train and infrastructure to achieve a few seconds time saving over such short distances! |
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Post by Colin on Jul 1, 2022 14:50:22 GMT
That might well be what you observed travelling on a particular train but the sign posted maximum speed limit is 45mph between Upminster & Bromley by Bow with a smattering of short local 20mph or 30/35mph's.
I can assure you trains regularly travel at the full signposted line speed on that part of the line.
62mph (near as damn it 100kph) has been achieved in CBTC testing either side of Becontree.
I do agree that talk of 80mph is RIPAS territory however.
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Post by bazza55 on Jul 1, 2022 15:26:15 GMT
Between which stations did they achieve 100kph in testing? I might take a return trip to Upminster early Sunday morning to see if I can record better performance. In manual mode the S7's seem slow to accelerate over 40mph - as if the power output really tails off.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 1, 2022 16:10:53 GMT
Between which stations did they achieve 100kph in testing? As I said, either side of Becontree, so Dagenham Heathway to Becontree and Becontree to Upney. I might take a return trip to Upminster early Sunday morning to see if I can record better performance. Firstly is your device calibrated? I can get speeds on my phone using GPS signals but I doubt they’re particularly accurate. Secondly you are travelling on trains where the driver is driving manually and will be choosing a speed based on factors such as whether they’re running early or late. Some drivers are more willing than others to drive at full line speed. On a Sunday morning there’s a fair chance the train will be running early and the driver will be deliberately driving slowly to avoid sitting outside Upminster waiting for a platform. The District is also notorious for being regarded as one of the slowest lines. The timetable is so relaxed that trains don’t always have to be driven flat out. Given the variables you need to do a number of trips on various trains to get some kind of average. But even then I’d be dubious about quoting it as any kind of fact regarding train speed performance. In manual mode the S7's seem slow to accelerate over 40mph - as if the power output really tails off. S stock is capped to perform like a D stock in the legacy signalled areas. |
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Post by bazza55 on Jul 2, 2022 13:15:17 GMT
Some updated maximum speeds from this morning's run - and an improvement over my last run.
Upminster to Upminster Bridge 43mph, - latest data not recorded
to Hornchurch 40mph, - updated 42mph
to Elm Park 40mph, - updated 45*mph
to Dagenham East 43mph, - updated 45*mph
to Dagenham Heathway 39mph, - updated 44mph
to Becontree 42mph, - updated 43mph
to Upney 39mph, - updated 45mph
To Barking 37mph, - updated 36mph
to East Ham 38mph, - updated 42mph
to Upton Park 37mph, - updated 43mph
to Plaistow 36mph, - updated 38mph
To West Ham 32mph - updated 33mph
We seemed to have a driver prepared to run at the full 45mph - the train preceding us departed 5 min earlier. I picked a train that wouldn't catch up the H&C starter from Barking - which only has around 2 min headway from Barking onwards.
The overall feeling - looking at the clock - was that there was not much timetable padding on the way to West Ham - the longest dwell was Barking.
What would really help the District line is renewal of some points - notably the approach to Upminster to allow at least 30-40mph in the platform or speeds that would be achieved under normal acceleration or braking. The departure from Upminster was 20mph max for some distance - even though the posted limit is 35mph ( but a small track mounted board indicates 20mph (temporary speed restriction). In the main - you would think the line is straight enough to allow 100kph all the way - except for curvature both sides of Barking. But the section between Plaistow and West Ham is slow - similarly at other stations such as Dagenham East where there are crossovers - some lower limits seem to apply - are many of the crossovers or points worn out and need replacing?
The curve between East Ham and Barking is very noisy and rough riding - particularly eastbound - compared to C2C services which run at the same speed.
Maybe the track design and wheel profiles are very different for LU?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 2, 2022 15:28:35 GMT
Some updated maximum speeds from this morning's run.....**snip snip**....We seemed to have a driver prepared to run at the full 45mph.....**snip** Which proves my point! Why don't you just ask what the maximum signed speed limits are? All this riding round on trains is gonna do is give you a load of different speeds. What would really help the District line is renewal of some points - notably the approach to Upminster to allow at least 30-40mph in the platform or speeds that would be achieved under normal acceleration or braking. Upminster already has points installed that are capable of higher speeds - you actually noted this point when looking at the westbound departing speed limit signage! That having been said, whilst two of the three platforms at Upminster do benefit from not being subject to the usual controls seen at terminal platforms you must bear in mind that trains can also approach the platforms from the depot and the signalling/signed speed limits must account for that. You will never see "at least 30-40mph" arriving into those platforms for that reason! The departure from Upminster was 20mph max for some distance - even though the posted limit is 35mph ( but a small track mounted board indicates 20mph (temporary speed restriction). As you correctly realised, there is indeed a 20mph temporary speed restriction westbound from all three platforms at Upminster and it goes about three quarters of the way to Upminster Bridge. There is also currently a 20mph temporary speed restriction approaching Barking eastbound FYI. But the section between Plaistow and West Ham is slow - similarly at other stations such as Dagenham East where there are crossovers. Aside from signed speed limits, the signalling system uses semi automatic signals in these area's which are controlled by the signallers. For that very reason, the signals often stay red or at least stay red until we approach and us drivers have to respond accordingly! The curve between East Ham and Barking is very noisy and rough riding - particularly eastbound The track in this area is 'corrugated' on the top edge which is what's producing the rough running. 'They' have run the rail grinder over it but it hasn't helped at all. -------------------------------------- On a more general point; I've said it many times in this very thread; I don't understand this fascination with speed. At the end of the day we run trains at a speed which is safe and which complies with the requirements of the signalling system, the lineside signage and the timetable. The railway is not a race track and this speed over everything approach leaves no margin for the day when it all goes very wrong. [/quote] |
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Post by decaded on Jul 2, 2022 18:08:09 GMT
Just a few observations here.....as one of the Barking /Upminster "signallers" mentioned, I would add that since the cable fire / explosion at the East end of Upney sidings adjacent to 21 Rd several weeks back, to this day and for the near future we have NO interaction / control over train movements East of Barking (including DGE) except entry & exit from the Sidings (West end only,NOT Upney end) and then only 26E/W > 29E/W Roads (21 > 25 still out of use due to same issue, no points/signals/control). The Signalling Diagram continually shows a continuous "Tracks Down" both roads Upney > Elm Park approach, + no Signal or Points indications at all. Alternatively it displays all tracks "Up" + all signal indications in the DGE area as Dual Aspects + all points in both directions including the Siding in<>out Reversed!.No trains are visualled though so no . And still we run a full train service (except,again, the the M-F DGE reverser's get turned round in the restricted capacity Barking Sidings, get extended to Upminster (T41 a favourite)....or get cancelled Ex EC Dt. The Auto-phone system has been/still is dead (except 1 phone line still working thanks to the old Fax machine still live).
40 points (EB to Bay Rd) is also out of use for near 2 weeks following constant failures , (this is the 20mph TSR stretch)... trains booked to reverse there either having to go via the Sidings (26 > 29 ,along with the H&C trains) , or via Plaistow Bay rd.....or get cancelled due to congestion. There is (allegedly) work this weekend to install new Stock & Switch kit to 40's so "hopefully" we'll get Pl 3 Bay back soon.
Re the East Ham - Barking Curve , this was a much better ride on the D Stock trains as I remember, something to do with the type of Bogies fitted during their Refurb.
Ref Upminster : The thormn in the side here is still the entry (EB) into Pl 5, which to this day has the Speed controlled trainstop at the approach end, ready to bring the unwary to an inglorious stop! This was fitted yers ago to protect the newly fitted (prior to D stock Refurb days) points at the East end of Pl 5 which have never been completed due to the plans to remove said trains via Romford was abandoned,including rerouting the OHL away from the mid-track termination structure in Pl 6. The controlled approach was never needed before and is still not required now, but the powers that be cannot/will not authorise the removal of the un-needed half constructed points and train arrester equipment to re-enable a more normal approach speed.
Happy Days !
Kevin
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Post by bazza55 on Jul 3, 2022 11:20:47 GMT
Thanks for the info on what is happening on the operational side.
Yes if anyone can detail the posted limits in force in both directions plus any TSR's that would be helpful.
My interest is in documenting the change in performance and journey times / capacity that ATO will bring.
Increased speeds have the potential to bring down journey times - as a user of the line I am documenting current performance and plan to build up a log of current day runs to see how much might change with the introduction of CBTC.
I'm not obsessed with speed> I'm more interested in journey times and how improvements in acceleration and maximum speeds affect them. As I said earlier, over very short distances (say 1.5 miles) - i calculated that running at 80mph yields only 5 seconds max improvement over 60mph running. The passenger may feel it is a much faster journey, but it isn't necessarily that much faster. Then again a 5 to 10 second improvement between stations - adds up to several minutes over the full length of the line.
Here we have the benefit of C2C services running parallell, but here again - a choice has to be made - sit on a slower train or change at West Ham to stand on a packed C2C service. Sometimes the time saving isn't worth the hassle of changing trains. Same applies at Upminster. It might be a slower journey - but at least you can be guaranteed a seat on a train starting at Upminster compared to a packed morning C2C train calling there.
Therefore any decrease in District line journey times - thanks to increased train speeds - does make it a more attractive proposition.
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