Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 3, 2022 11:43:45 GMT
I'll try and find some time later today to set out the current speed limits at the east end of the line, unless one of my colleagues beats me to it.
On the subject of improving journey times and perceptions, have you used the line in the zone one central area?
Trains now spend less time in platforms as the CBTC system encourages drivers to complete their platform duties quickly but they then tend to travel more slowly between stations as the system runs to the timetable. The overall perception is that journeys take longer but in reality the time it takes to travel from say Tower Hill to Earls Court is exactly the same as its always been because the timetable dictates the running of a given train.
Whilst moving to CBTC is part of the solution to improving journey times, ultimately only a timetable uplift will be able to give you the full effect.
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Post by bazza55 on Jul 4, 2022 10:09:48 GMT
Thanks. I look forward to seeing some detail on the speed limits. Though I guess that the short distances between some stations prevents it being reached - especially in adverse conditions. Do we have any idea on what maximum speeds will be programmed into CBTC running on the east side?
Re: timetabling, I haven't examined the current WTT to older ones. There are claims of faster running and timings down to 1/4 min. Is a faster timetable planned for the future? Does anyone know how much time could be lopped off the current timetable if CBTC were used to its full potential.
It does make sense to have some resilience in the timetable by setting longer dwell times and slightly slower running when trains are on time. And the ability to recoup time by running legally faster and shortening dwell times to get a train back on time. I noted that on a late running Elizabeth line service where a late train dwell times were reduced to 30s instead of the ususal 1 min. And the running was notably quicker through Bond Street.
Of course during peak times i imagine dwell times can end up being longer than planned.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 4, 2022 11:02:51 GMT
Thanks. I look forward to seeing some detail on the speed limits. Though I guess that the short distances between some stations prevents it being reached - especially in adverse conditions. What follows below are the signed maximum permitted speed limits. As you correctly suggest, there are some sections where there isn't enough physical distance or the gradient to actually achieve the signed maximum permitted speed limit. Going westbound to start with, as you know its 30 or 35mph from the platforms at Upminster though there is currently a lengthy 20mph TSR (Temporary Speed Restriction). The line speed increases to 45mph a train length or so after clearing all the pointwork. There is a brief 40mph section of about half a train length between Upney and the exit from Barking sidings (Barking end). The line speed departing Barking (w/b main and bay) is 30mph. From the end of the flyover its 20mph for trains off the w/b main and 45mph for trains off the bay (don't ask!). A train lenght beyond the flyover its 45mph for everything going west. The line speed drops to 40mph adjacent to West Ham siding then its back to 45mph when departing the w/b platform. There is a bridge over the water just before Bromley by Bow - the line speed here drops to 35mph. It's 30mph departing Bromley by Bow w/b then 20mph as we go round the bend and down to Bow Road. From Bow Road its 35mph to Stepney Green and CBTC land. Now over to the eastbound at Stepney Green - the line speed starts at 35mph. After departing Bow Road its 20mph round the tight bend then back to 35mph into Bromley by Bow. There is a 30mph TSR leaving Bromley by Bow (though hardly temporary - it's been there at least 21 years that I know of!). From the bridge over the water the line speed increases to 45mph. On the approach to Plaistow the line speed drops to 35mph and then its back to 45mph upon departing the platform. There is a 20mph TSR on the approach to Barking e/b. After departing Barking, adjacent to the sidings, the line speed drops slightly to 40mph........it's soon back up to 45mph though as we depart Upney e/b. The line speed drops to 40mph on the approach to Hornchurch but returns to 45mph departing the e/b platform. Finally, its 15mph into Upminster platforms 3 & 4 and 10mph into Upminster platform 5. Do we have any idea on what maximum speeds will be programmed into CBTC running on the east side? Thales will have that information but we're some way from getting our hands on that on the operating side. Re: timetabling, I haven't examined the current WTT to older ones. There are claims of faster running and timings down to 1/4 min. The working timetable does indeed show times to the ¼ minute. The timings between stations have been tweaked but the overall end to end run time hasn't changed. Is a faster timetable planned for the future? Possibly but again that's not something we're aware of on the operating side as things currently stand. This would be needed to see an actual change in end to end journey times. |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Aug 2, 2022 2:01:42 GMT
Has Barking LUL signal cabin regained control of Dagenham East after the cable fire a few weeks ago ?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 2, 2022 3:25:13 GMT
Resumed Fri 8 July morning.
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DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,487
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Post by DWS on Sept 8, 2022 13:19:08 GMT
New signals have been installed at Amersham, these seem to have larger junction indicators than the LT ones, as they will only be for Network Rail trains. They are bagged up and the photos taken when the 1938 stock was running last weekend only show the back of the new signals, will the junction indicator have five white lights unlike the LT ones that have only 3 white lights ?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 8, 2022 14:07:40 GMT
Yes, five lights
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 9, 2022 0:07:08 GMT
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Post by A60stock on Sept 12, 2022 16:02:10 GMT
Right, I know this question comes up from time to time but it seems like it's been years since it was last discussed:
What will the full, in tph be on the Met line off peak post full CBTC? Will this ever include the return of off peak fast or semi fast trains?
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Post by A60stock on Sept 21, 2022 8:13:36 GMT
Yes. Dates are perhaps a little ambitious at the current rate of progress so are not guaranteed!! SMA8 (Finchley Road to Preston Road) April 2023 SMA9 (Preston Road to West Harrow/Moor Park) July 2023 SMA13 (Moor Park to Amersham/Chesham/Watford) August 2023 SMA14 (West Harrow/South Harrow to Uxbridge) Jan 2024 It is still beyond me as to why the Met North of Harrow is in scope (Quite possibly North of Finchley Road as well) when the Western ends of the District (which I am guessing are far busier than the Northern Met) won't be included. Is this still on track for the above dates? |
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Post by t697 on Sept 21, 2022 16:46:40 GMT
Oh dear, slipped out to 6 months or so of the delays on the fast due to the need to halt at the Preston Road Tripcock/ATC changeover boundary. On the other hand, maybe SMA8 will fix the blocking back on the SB towards Finchley Road that always seems so much worse than in legacy signalling days.
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Post by jimbo on Sept 21, 2022 20:07:49 GMT
I think there has been further slippage since those dates were revealed, since the final section of signalling, SMA14 to Uxbridge, installation hadn't commenced and is now expected to go live between spring and autumn 2025, as advised to the TfL Programmes and Investment Committee on 20 July 2022.
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Post by gigabit on Oct 31, 2022 16:44:12 GMT
Has signalling been done at East Putney yet? Platform boards and apps still don't show the trains in real time
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 31, 2022 17:02:59 GMT
No, not likely before the end of 2023.
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Post by gigabit on Oct 31, 2022 17:18:20 GMT
When done the apps and boards will be fixed?
Mod edit [goldenarrow]: Quote removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 31, 2022 17:32:40 GMT
Are you specifically asking about trains coming from Wimbledon? If you are, I suspect you'll be waiting a long time as the next train information comes from the Network Rail signalling system which as I'm sure you'll appreciate is about as reliable as a chocolate kettle.
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Post by gigabit on Nov 2, 2022 13:58:29 GMT
Yes trains coming from Wimbledon, the boards are always wrong, I had thought by upgrading the signalling system to East Putney they'd know where the trains were at East Putney?
The boards at East Putney at least are now showing the trains again but they only seem to show one at a time and the destination is always wrong, it's Edgware Road when it's going to the City, or the City when it's going to Edgware Road. Any ideas why?
Mod edit [goldenarrow]: Quote removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.
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Post by pbin on Nov 2, 2022 14:16:02 GMT
The boards at East Putney at least are now showing the trains again but they only seem to show one at a time and the destination is always wrong, it's Edgware Road when it's going to the City, or the City when it's going to Edgware Road. Any ideas why? Parson’s Green just completely avoids that issue by showing “District Line xxmins” on the EB platform. Very informative. |
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Post by roman80 on Nov 2, 2022 18:37:25 GMT
Once resignalled to East Putney, should the eastbound boards at Putney Bridge and Parsons Green become more accurate, able to pick up information from East Putney onwards?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 3, 2022 0:24:59 GMT
Yes trains coming from Wimbledon, the boards are always wrong, I had thought by upgrading the signalling system to East Putney they'd know where the trains were at East Putney? CBTC arriving at East Putney won't improve the information displayed on the eastbound platform prior to a train's arrival as that information will still be supplied by Network Rail. Once CBTC arrives at East Putney, the destination board on the eastbound platform will update to show the correct information only after a train has arrived in the platform and entered into the CBTC system. The boards at East Putney at least are now showing the trains again but they only seem to show one at a time and the destination is always wrong, it's Edgware Road when it's going to the City, or the City when it's going to Edgware Road. Any ideas why? More often than not this is because trains arrive at Wimbledon out of timetabled order on their westbound trips. Drivers will then depart in the correct order for their eastbound trip but Network Rail's signalling system assumes trains are departing Wimbledon in the order that they arrived which of course is incorrect hence the displayed destinations become muddled up. Once resignalled to East Putney, should the eastbound boards at Putney Bridge and Parsons Green become more accurate, able to pick up information from East Putney onwards? Yes, as per above, once trains arrive at East Putney and enter the CBTC system stations further along should then get that correct information displayed on their platforms. |
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Post by gigabit on Nov 5, 2022 1:05:00 GMT
Thanks, so Wimbledon to East Putney is doomed to be inaccurate/wrong forever?  |
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Post by jimbo on Nov 5, 2022 3:29:20 GMT
LU are still pushing for funding for resignalling of the Picc, which is intended to allow Ealing Broadway branch to be absorbed by that line. This will result in the current District Line service there being diverted to boost the Richmond and Wimbledon branches. Is it expected that the coming resignalling to East Putney will provide sufficient capacity for those additional trains?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 5, 2022 12:20:12 GMT
Thanks, so Wimbledon to East Putney is doomed to be inaccurate/wrong forever? Yep |
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Post by goldenarrow on Nov 5, 2022 21:15:53 GMT
Is it expected that the coming resignalling to East Putney will provide sufficient capacity for those additional trains? The Wimbledon branch already has the capability to support its maximum intended post-4LM frequency of 16tph. Extending CBTC operation south to East Putney is more about closing out legacy assets chief among those being Parsons Green IMR and Earls Court control room. |
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Post by ijmad on Nov 5, 2022 21:31:43 GMT
Is it expected that the coming resignalling to East Putney will provide sufficient capacity for those additional trains? Not directly since the Wimbledon branch already has the capability to support the maximum intended post-4LM frequency of 16tph. Extending CBTC operation south to East Putney is more about closing out legacy assets chief among those being Parsons Green IMR and Earls Court control room. From what I recall the current post-4LM peak frequencies would be 8tph to Richmond, 8tph to Ealing Broadway, and 16tph to Wimbledon (half and half to Upminster/Edgware). If the 8tph to Ealing Broadway was withdrawn surely the most sensible option would be 12tph to Richmond and 20tph to Wimbledon. So could the signalling cope with 20tph without further work or replacement? Or does it top out at 16... |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 6, 2022 4:28:00 GMT
If the 8tph to Ealing Broadway was withdrawn surely the most sensible option would be 12tph to Richmond and 20tph to Wimbledon. So could the signalling cope with 20tph without further work or replacement? Or does it top out at 16... You do realise we share the Richmond branch with London Overground? There's no way we could run 12tph alongside the Overground services. On the shared section between Gunnersbury & Richmond there's only 5 signals in each direction! We occasionally run 9tph to Richmond at weekends when there's engineering work affecting other branches and it always struggles to hold up alongside the Overground service. At both Richmond and Wimbledon, the layout of the tracks to & from the terminal platforms very much limit capacity. At Richmond trains departing from platforms 3, 4 and 5 travel along the incoming down (westbound) track for some distance before joining the up (eastbound) track which in turn delays arriving trains into Richmond. The same situation exists at Wimbledon where trains departing platforms 3 & 4 travel along the incoming down (westbound) track for some distance before joining the up (eastbound) track which again delays arriving trains into Wimbledon. The speed limit departing both Richmond & Wimbledon is 15mph and it goes on for quite a distance at both locations. They simply aren't the same as a typical three platform LU terminal which can handle a higher tph number. LU can often achieve a high tph number by making use of step back's but Richmond & Wimbledon don't lend themselves to this type of working, especially at Richmond as again we have to work alongside London Overground. It's perhaps also worth pointing out that South West trains run empty trains on the Wimbledon branch; granted not frequently, but when they do they run at a much lower speed which constrains capacity. |
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Post by ijmad on Nov 6, 2022 10:11:19 GMT
If the 8tph to Ealing Broadway was withdrawn surely the most sensible option would be 12tph to Richmond and 20tph to Wimbledon. So could the signalling cope with 20tph without further work or replacement? Or does it top out at 16... You do realise we share the Richmond branch with London Overground? There's no way we could run 12tph alongside the Overground services. On the shared section between Gunnersbury & Richmond there's only 5 signals in each direction! We occasionally run 9tph to Richmond at weekends when there's engineering work affecting other branches and it always struggles to hold up alongside the Overground service. At both Richmond and Wimbledon, the layout of the tracks to & from the terminal platforms very much limit capacity. At Richmond trains departing from platforms 3, 4 and 5 travel along the incoming down (westbound) track for some distance before joining the up (eastbound) track which in turn delays arriving trains into Richmond. The same situation exists at Wimbledon where trains departing platforms 3 & 4 travel along the incoming down (westbound) track for some distance before joining the up (eastbound) track which again delays arriving trains into Wimbledon. The speed limit departing both Richmond & Wimbledon is 15mph and it goes on for quite a distance at both locations. Yeah, I did wonder about the Overground timetable - fair enough. So where do you think they'd send the 8 extra trains 'liberated' from the Ealing Broadway branch then? Passengers at West Kensington, Stamford Brook and Ravenscourt Park won't be very happy about having their services chopped in half so a few of them surely must stay on the Western branch and go somewhere else? There don't seem to be any other options apart from sending them to Gunnersbury. Has this branch swap idea really not been thought out? It seemed like a few years ago it was more or less a 'done deal' before everything started getting pushed back due to the 4LM project getting delayed and then the pandemic. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 6, 2022 12:17:22 GMT
I'm only a driver; I have no idea what management are planning.
When I started driving 18 years ago there was a rumour that seemed to be older than time itself suggesting the Piccadilly line would swap its Rayners Lane branch with the District's Ealing Broadway terminus. That would require an uplift in tph at peak times for the District line versus what's currently provided to Ealing Broadway but it would allow the Piccadilly line to concentrate on it's core services on the Heathrow branch.
There's two obvious flaws with that plan from a District line point of view - surface stock has speed limit restrictions when passing under bridges on the Ealing Common to Rayners Lane section, and a few more S stock's would be needed to plug the required uplift in tph and distance/stations covered. Granted they could nick the 7+1 extra S stock off the Met and maybe run with a few less spares at peak times. I don't know whether that would cover the shortfall though.
I guess it all depends on who has the final say on these things, what their view is and what budgets are available.....
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 7, 2022 17:04:29 GMT
There's two obvious flaws with that plan from a District line point of view - surface stock has speed limit restrictions when passing under bridges on the Ealing Common to Rayners Lane section, and a few more S stock's would be needed to plug the required uplift in tph and distance/stations covered. Granted they could nick the 7+1 extra S stock off the Met and maybe run with a few less spares at peak times. I don't know whether that would cover the shortfall though. S stock might be speed limited but were all older types of surface stock? After all, this route was built for steam powered surface stock trains. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Nov 7, 2022 17:16:20 GMT
Yes - it applied to all surface stock.
I believe it applied specifically to one bridge near Sudbury Hill, which has since been partially demolished.
Also worth pointing out that while the original trains to run on the line were Surface stock profile, the Ealing and South Harrow was electrified from the start.
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