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Post by Chris L on Mar 28, 2022 18:31:51 GMT
I can't see the issue. I think that what's been done at Earls Court is actually very good and well thought out. Rather putting up an unhelpful "Not in use" sign on only a small part and leaving the rest plain blue as suggested, somebody has had the sense to put a message up which prompts customers use their eyes and seek out other signs on the platform which are providing the information they're looking for. How can in better to provide a blank plain blue area and a not in use sign over a message that says you might wanna have a look at our other signs? What strange stance to adopt! Probably because you have walked past the other displays to get to the point where you can read these panels. Also confusing to people who know there are normally destinations on each panel and you don't need to read all of them. |
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Post by Tom on Mar 28, 2022 19:42:49 GMT
But then neither were the originals - these, of course, pre-date the Johnston typeface by several years. A total waste of money. They could have been covered with simpler temporary signage. Absolutely. I was told on Saturday morning that things were running a bit behind at Earl's Court because of issues 'bagging the TD signs', to which I asked what was going on with them, and why not put up posters nearby? This is less ugly than bin liners (which was my fear), but simply turning the lighting feed off and putting up some posters would have been much faster, simpler, and cheaper. |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 28, 2022 21:07:56 GMT
Probably because you have walked past the other displays to get to the point where you can read these panels. That assumes that nobody arrives on the District line platforms having alighted from the middle of a District line train or walked up the stairs from the escalators to the Piccadilly line or taken one of the lifts to the platform. I've only used Earl's Court twice this year but on both occasions these were the first indicators I saw after arriving on a District line train. Also confusing to people who know there are normally destinations on each panel and you don't need to read all of them. You see it says something other than a destination so you read the whole thing and having wasted maybe 5 whole seconds you are now fully informed about what you need to do. This is less ugly than bin liners (which was my fear), but simply turning the lighting feed off and putting up some posters would have been much faster, simpler, and cheaper. But far, far less customer friendly - with what they have done there is no question that these boards are out of service but destination information is available elsewhere on the platform without the need for anybody to try and correctly interpret a blank screen, think to look for a poster, find a poster somewhere vaguely nearby only to then have to move again to find the train information. On seeing a completely blank screen I'd probably guess that there was some sort of fault with the system and expect this to be the same across all displays. So I'd just wait and look at the trains as they came in or ask a member of staff if one was passing (I wouldn't seek someone out, but I suspect many people would). |
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Post by johnlinford on Mar 28, 2022 21:12:52 GMT
Honestly it looks like some foamex prints inserted or stuck over the top. The cost is trivial on the scale of the project, and while my preference would just be blanking it all this isn't bad.
Was the issue around Aldgate last weekend related to the upgrade or coincidental?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2022 22:42:02 GMT
Honestly it looks like some foamex prints inserted or stuck over the top. The cost is trivial on the scale of the project, and while my preference would just be blanking it all this isn't bad. Was the issue around Aldgate last weekend related to the upgrade or coincidental? It was a mechanical failure of a set of points at Aldgate East nothing to do with the upgrade with SMA5 |
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Post by Chris L on Mar 29, 2022 6:14:32 GMT
Honestly it looks like some foamex prints inserted or stuck over the top. The cost is trivial on the scale of the project, and while my preference would just be blanking it all this isn't bad. Was the issue around Aldgate last weekend related to the upgrade or coincidental? I hope it wasn't Foamex. Banned on Section 12 stations for many years as it gives off lethal amounts cyanide fumes in a fire. The roof means it is a Section 12 station. |
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Post by xtmw on Mar 29, 2022 17:18:13 GMT
It seems Monument has a thing for faulty trains this week... Is this due to the recent upgrade or is it completely different?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Mar 29, 2022 21:18:32 GMT
There have been a few issues relating to trains crossing over VCC boundaries - Monument being one such location.
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Post by scheduler on Mar 29, 2022 21:39:00 GMT
Is a working timetable change anticipated once SMA5 is bedded in to take into account the faster journey times potentially available in zone 1? Nothing on the horizon. Jubilee to change 15 May Northern 27 June Piccadilly & Metropolitan 18 July. District H&C will probably wait until after SMA 6 (June) and possibly 7. The SMA 5 upgrade timetable for District and C&H was originally planned for May, but it needed the Piccadilly South Harrow works to be finished and for the Piccadilly to have re-started Night Tube. Those works have over-run, so the upgraded base timetable programme, beyond those already listed is "under review". Highly likely to see something before end of this year, but unsure when. |
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Post by gigabit on Apr 4, 2022 8:04:29 GMT
Did I read above the signalling work is now being done at East Putney?
Will this resolve the issue of the platform boards mostly always being wrong and not having live status of the trains via TfL/CityMapper/Google Maps etc?
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Post by Colin on Apr 4, 2022 8:43:29 GMT
Did I read above the signalling work is now being done at East Putney? There is a plan to move the CBTC boundary from Fulham Broadway to East Putney though it won't happen till after the current program of upgrades is completed on the Metropolitan line. I would imagine nothing will happen in the East Putney area before 2025. Will this resolve the issue of the platform boards mostly always being wrong and not having live status of the trains via TfL/CityMapper/Google Maps etc? No! The problem at East Putney with Earls Court bound trains is that the information you see displayed on the platforms is supplied by Network Rail from Wimbledon. The Network Rail system relies on trains being in their timetabled order......obviously it doesn't take much to throw things out such as trains arriving out of timetabled order at Wimbledon then departing in timetabled order, or a cancellation causing a missing trip which the signal system assumes is still running. |
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Post by xtmw on Apr 4, 2022 9:37:45 GMT
Did I read above the signalling work is now being done at East Putney? There is a plan to move the CBTC boundary from Fulham Broadway to East Putney though it won't happen till after the current program of upgrades is completed on the Metropolitan line. I would imagine nothing will happen in the East Putney area before 2025. Will this resolve the issue of the platform boards mostly always being wrong and not having live status of the trains via TfL/CityMapper/Google Maps etc? No! The problem at East Putney with Earls Court bound trains is that the information you see displayed on the platforms is supplied by Network Rail from Wimbledon. The Network Rail system relies on trains being in their timetabled order......obviously it doesn't take much to throw things out such as trains arriving out of timetabled order at Wimbledon then departing in timetabled order, or a cancellation causing a missing trip which the signal system assumes is still running. I did read somewhere here some of the SMA areas in the western areas aren't going live due to financial problems. Is this true? Which sections aren't going live? |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 4, 2022 9:52:34 GMT
I did read somewhere here some of the SMA areas in the western areas aren't going live due to financial problems. Is this true? Which sections aren't going live? SMA 10 will be to Stamford Brook only (descoped to Chiswick Park/Richmond) SMA 11 descoped (Chiswick Park-Ealing Broadway) SMA 12 will be to East Putney only (descoped to Wimbledon) |
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Post by Colin on Apr 4, 2022 11:18:06 GMT
I did read somewhere here some of the SMA areas in the western areas aren't going live due to financial problems. Is this true? Which sections aren't going live? To add a little more to Dstock7080's post, yes the west end of the District has been descoped from the 4LM CBTC signalling project on cost grounds. There have been numerous delays to the project and it has now extended way beyond its original planned timeline such that it was going require more funding to fully complete it. Given where TfL's finances are now, it was an easy decision to descope some of the project now and then look to add it on to the Piccadilly line upgrade as and when that happens. It should be noted that there is no guarantee of the descoped area's being added to the Piccadilly line upgrade, but that is the current intention..... |
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Post by ijmad on Apr 4, 2022 12:34:46 GMT
Based on latest info, is the whole of the Met still in scope for CBTC ?
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Post by Colin on Apr 4, 2022 13:17:33 GMT
Based on latest info, is the whole of the Met still in scope for CBTC ? Yes. Dates are perhaps a little ambitious at the current rate of progress so are not guaranteed!! SMA8 (Finchley Road to Preston Road) April 2023 SMA9 (Preston Road to West Harrow/Moor Park) July 2023 SMA13 (Moor Park to Amersham/Chesham/Watford) August 2023 SMA14 (West Harrow/South Harrow to Uxbridge) Jan 2024 |
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Post by DWS on Apr 4, 2022 14:11:14 GMT
Based on latest info, is the whole of the Met still in scope for CBTC ? Yes. Dates are perhaps a little ambitious at the current rate of progress so are not guaranteed!! SMA8 (Finchley Road to Preston Road) April 2023 SMA9 (Preston Road to West Harrow/Moor Park) July 2023 SMA13 (Moor Park to Amersham/Chesham/Watford) August 2032 SMA14 (West Harrow/South Harrow to Uxbridge) Jan 2024 Do you have dates for SMA6 and SMA7 ? |
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Post by Colin on Apr 4, 2022 14:25:17 GMT
Do you have dates for SMA6 and SMA7 ? Certainly, though these are to be taken with an extremely large pinch of salt at the moment! SMA6 (Stepney Green to Becontree) 18th/19th June 2022 SMA7 (Becontree to Upminster) January 2023 |
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Post by ijmad on Apr 4, 2022 14:36:37 GMT
Based on latest info, is the whole of the Met still in scope for CBTC ? Yes. Dates are perhaps a little ambitious at the current rate of progress so are not guaranteed!! SMA8 (Finchley Road to Preston Road) April 2023 SMA9 (Preston Road to West Harrow/Moor Park) July 2023 SMA13 (Moor Park to Amersham/Chesham/Watford) August 2032 SMA14 (West Harrow/South Harrow to Uxbridge) Jan 2024 Nice. So they will still be doing a colour signal overlay solution for Rayners Lane to Uxbridge I assume! A while to get it working well though. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Apr 4, 2022 15:56:49 GMT
SMA13 (Moor Park to Amersham/Chesham/Watford) August 2032I could manage ten years at Ricky or Amersham… 🤔 |
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Post by Colin on Apr 4, 2022 16:31:21 GMT
I could manage ten years at Ricky or Amersham… 🤔 Typo! Original post edited with the correct date though I could probably get away with claiming the erroneous date as correct one!  |
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Post by gigabit on Apr 5, 2022 5:30:52 GMT
Thanks for the kind response above.
Will we ever be able to see the live status of trains at Eaat Putney on CityMapper or will it always be broken?
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Post by A60stock on Apr 5, 2022 9:41:44 GMT
Based on latest info, is the whole of the Met still in scope for CBTC ? Yes. Dates are perhaps a little ambitious at the current rate of progress so are not guaranteed!! SMA8 (Finchley Road to Preston Road) April 2023 SMA9 (Preston Road to West Harrow/Moor Park) July 2023 SMA13 (Moor Park to Amersham/Chesham/Watford) August 2023 SMA14 (West Harrow/South Harrow to Uxbridge) Jan 2024 It is still beyond me as to why the Met North of Harrow is in scope (Quite possibly North of Finchley Road as well) when the Western ends of the District (which I am guessing are far busier than the Northern Met) won't be included. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 5, 2022 10:08:46 GMT
It is still beyond me as to why the Met North of Harrow is in scope (Quite possibly North of Finchley Road as well) when the Western ends of the District (which I am guessing are far busier than the Northern Met) won't be included. It isn’t really about the frequency of services that determines CBTC but the age of the legacy equipment being replaced. |
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Post by jimbo on Apr 5, 2022 11:41:33 GMT
The three western District areas would have required another version of CBTC to be developed to sit atop the current signalling, which would have remained for non-District trains. Out on the Met new lineside signalling is being installed to sit atop new CBTC for non-Met trains.
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Post by Tom on Apr 5, 2022 13:58:59 GMT
It is still beyond me as to why the Met North of Harrow is in scope (Quite possibly North of Finchley Road as well) when the Western ends of the District (which I am guessing are far busier than the Northern Met) won't be included. Other than the Uxbridge branch, the signalling north of Preston Road is life expired, and was so at least twenty years ago. The signalling west of Stamford Brook is a little younger, but the key difference is any asset replacement or renewal in that area needs to consider the Piccadilly line. It therefore made sense to renew the shared District/Piccadilly sections as part of the Piccadilly line resignalling. The three western District areas would have required another version of CBTC to be developed to sit atop the current signalling, which would have remained for non-District trains. Out on the Met new lineside signalling is being installed to sit atop new CBTC for non-Met trains. There's a little bit more to it than this, but you're on the right track. An overlay solution should have been easier to implement with trains driving to fixed points (signal to signal) and the CBTC system just 'listening in' on the legacy signalling. However, Thales wanted axle counters rather than taking track circuit status, plus there was the (not very) small issue of using the system on Network Rail's infrastructure - which would have required type approval, and appropriate testing to satisfy Network Rail, where it would be considered 'new and novel'. There's a lot more to it than I can go into on the forum (and even more that I haven't been made aware of) but I understand the complexities of introducing the system on the Network Rail sections, where it would provide little benefit compared to the existing (at a great cost), may have been the final straw. [/quote] |
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Post by roman80 on Apr 5, 2022 14:27:29 GMT
Thanks for the kind response above. Will we ever be able to see the live status of trains at Eaat Putney on CityMapper or will it always be broken? Can I add Putney Bridge to that. Not only is the destination usually inaccurate, ghost trains sometimes appear that aren't even on the boards. This morning, train 124 turned up at 720am with the only trains on the boards showing five and seven minutes away. |
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Post by d7666 on Apr 5, 2022 17:02:18 GMT
The signalling west of Stamford Brook is a little younger, but the key difference is any asset replacement or renewal in that area needs to consider the Piccadilly line. It therefore made sense to renew the shared District/Piccadilly sections as part of the Piccadilly line resignalling. Eggs and chickens ? It is equally as much an argument to renew the shared sections as part of the District resignalling. Surely the real issue here has very little to do with the technicalities or operating of the D. & P. lines but more to do with a chance for the spreadsheet manipulators been counting by pushing cells around and defering cost from the earlier (4LM) project to the later (Picc.) project ? |
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Post by d7666 on Apr 5, 2022 17:06:48 GMT
Rather than start a new thread I'm placing this here - as I suspect it is all connected. I've seen a photo showing the historic District Line train describers at Earls Court with the station names replaced by boards showing the following message (in block capitals, as shown here): PLEASE USE ALTERNATIVE PLATFORM DESTINATION SCREENS Its not my photo so for copyright reasons I cannot share it here. My thoughts and question: oh dear, that suggests they could not get the computerised signalling system to integrate with the historic train describers (or ran out of money to do this?) - I would have been happier if they had retained the destinations as at Gloucester Road westbound, albeit perhaps if any changes are felt neccessary then with the arrows covered. Already explained this one in this forum somewhere some time ago. The legacy light boxes at ECT do work with the new system - but it was always planned they would NOT be working on Day One of CBTC. There is a possible roll back period if for some reason CBTC does not work as expected, and reversion to clockwork signalling. Once this roll back period has passed, the light boxes will be connected up and will work as before but driven from the CBTC kit. It is just one step less to ease roll back should it have happened. What you see now is but a temporary situation. No I don't know when the permanent will be done. But it has all been figured out, designed, ready. |
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Post by Colin on Apr 5, 2022 17:43:07 GMT
Surely the real issue here has very little to do with the technicalities or operating of the D. & P. lines but more to do with a chance for the spreadsheet manipulators been counting by pushing cells around and defering cost from the earlier (4LM) project to the later (Picc.) project ? That's exactly what I said 14 posts previously and Tom said in the post you quoted. Neither of us said anything about any technical issues; we both said it makes sense to push the costs onto the future Piccadilly upgrade and basically change the signalling once in one go. |
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