Tom
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Post by Tom on Jun 4, 2021 8:12:14 GMT
I can see the point in resignalling Parsons Green, a very old area, and so closing the last desk at Earl's Court. What is the case for extending a few stations west from Barons Court? I asked exactly the same question when there was a project workshop on the proposal! Extending CBTC westward to Stamford Brook is a pragmatic way to recover sunk costs reflecting the advanced stage of works SMA 10 had reached prior to the descope decision being made. It eliminates as many legacy signalling assets as practically possible at this time whilst benefitting from reduced maintenance, renewal and obsolescence costs by fitting pure CBTC. Agreed, but it also reduces flexibility of operation at Hammersmith and between there and Barons Court. The upcoming plain lining works at Hammersmith is for 4LM's end state layout, it would make sense to delay it based on the delay to SMA10. A train failing to transition to CBTC at the Barons Court boundary only has to limp to West Kensington in RM; in theory one failing to transition to Tripcock could be worked to Hammersmith EB fast platform, reversed and sent back East into the CBTC area. With a boundary at Stamford Brook, the required RM driving for a train that fails to transition is a lot further and will take a lot longer to resolve. Likewise if it fails to transition to Tripcock it'll be limping all the way to Ealing Common. This isn't an ideal location if something fails (which I agree it shouldn't) - Barons Court was much better in that regard. |
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vincenture
Quiz tryhard, and an advocate for simpler, less complicated rail routes
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Post by vincenture on Jun 4, 2021 9:03:46 GMT
Hmm no track closure on 11 July on the District/Piccadilly, but there is on 25 and 26 July on the affected section, as well as affecting the Piccadilly. Interesting that while 26-27 June involves a Tower Hill to Barking closure, the one on 10 July is only Whitechapel to Barking.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jun 4, 2021 9:58:15 GMT
Extending CBTC westward to Stamford Brook is a pragmatic way to recover sunk costs reflecting the advanced stage of works SMA 10 had reached prior to the descope decision being made. It eliminates as many legacy signalling assets as practically possible at this time whilst benefitting from reduced maintenance, renewal and obsolescence costs by fitting pure CBTC. Agreed, but it also reduces flexibility of operation at Hammersmith and between there and Barons Court. The upcoming plain lining works at Hammersmith is for 4LM's end state layout, it would make sense to delay it based on the delay to SMA10. A train failing to transition to CBTC at the Barons Court boundary only has to limp to West Kensington in RM; in theory one failing to transition to Tripcock could be worked to Hammersmith EB fast platform, reversed and sent back East into the CBTC area. With a boundary at Stamford Brook, the required RM driving for a train that fails to transition is a lot further and will take a lot longer to resolve. Likewise if it fails to transition to Tripcock it'll be limping all the way to Ealing Common. This isn't an ideal location if something fails (which I agree it shouldn't) - Barons Court was much better in that regard. Very true, it's classic SSR catch-22. Even with the provision of a radio island at Ealing Common depot, it's never going to definitively weed out all the troublesome units. One would hope this makes an even more forceful case for Piccadilly line CBTC or at least ATO post-2024 stock roll out. Even if that is forthcoming in a timely manner, that's still a fair few years of yelling at the tripcock latch relay. |
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Post by jimbo on Jun 4, 2021 11:51:57 GMT
I can see the point in resignalling Parsons Green, a very old area, and so closing the last desk at Earl's Court. What is the case for extending a few stations west from Barons Court? ..... Extending CBTC westward to Stamford Brook is a pragmatic way to recover sunk costs reflecting the advanced stage of works SMA 10 had reached prior to the descope decision being made. It eliminates as many legacy signalling assets as practically possible at this time whilst benefitting from reduced maintenance, renewal and obsolescence costs by fitting pure CBTC. Agreed, but it also reduces flexibility of operation at Hammersmith and between there and Barons Court. The upcoming plain lining works at Hammersmith is for 4LM's end state layout, it would make sense to delay it based on the delay to SMA10. A train failing to transition to CBTC at the Barons Court boundary only has to limp to West Kensington in RM; in theory one failing to transition to Tripcock could be worked to Hammersmith EB fast platform, reversed and sent back East into the CBTC area. With a boundary at Stamford Brook, the required RM driving for a train that fails to transition is a lot further and will take a lot longer to resolve. Likewise if it fails to transition to Tripcock it'll be limping all the way to Ealing Common. This isn't an ideal location if something fails (which I agree it shouldn't) - Barons Court was much better in that regard. And this is a planned permanent change, not just until the next area is commissioned! |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Jun 4, 2021 12:16:12 GMT
Why do engineering train drivers need training between South Kensington and Whitechapel, ? Could this be linked to it being a CBTC area? Exactly that. The engineers train driver’s are not yet fully up to speed on CBTC as evidenced by a couple of recent shutdowns where they’ve arrived at a CBTC boundary and apparently had no knowledge of how to proceed. No doubt the lack of training is down to COVID-19, was surprised that an engineering train was run in the day time, was this the one that ended up in Upminster depot, a photo of which was taken by DStock7080 on Sunday 11April 2021. It’s in the June Issue of Underground News. It seems to have a load of large concrete blocks and sleepers any idea what site they were going to be used at ? |
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Colin
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My preserved fire engine!
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Post by Colin on Jun 4, 2021 14:07:08 GMT
No doubt the lack of training is down to COVID-19, was surprised that an engineering train was run in the day time, was this the one that ended up in Upminster depot, a photo of which was taken by DStock7080 on Sunday 11April 2021. It’s in the June Issue of Underground News. It seems to have a load of large concrete blocks and sleepers any idea what site they were going to be used at ? No idea of the original destination. I gather it came onto the District line via Acton/Hammersmith and District line service control assumed the train crew were CBTC trained. The train arrived at Monument (that was the boundary at the time) and after sitting looking at a red signal for a bit they made the required enquiries. It was at this point that the train crew became aware they were at the CBTC boundary - they didn't know SMA3 had gone live!  It then transpired they weren't CBTC trained. Luckily we were providing instructor operator support and that was utilised in order to move the train through to Stepney Green. EDIT: I should add that I wasn't there but I believe what I have said is accurate. |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Jun 4, 2021 15:57:01 GMT
No doubt the lack of training is down to COVID-19, was surprised that an engineering train was run in the day time, was this the one that ended up in Upminster depot, a photo of which was taken by DStock7080 on Sunday 11April 2021. It’s in the June Issue of Underground News. It seems to have a load of large concrete blocks and sleepers any idea what site they were going to be used at ? No idea of the original destination. I gather it came onto the District line via Acton/Hammersmith and District line service control assumed the train crew were CBTC trained. The train arrived at Monument (that was the boundary at the time) and after sitting looking at a red signal for a bit they made the required enquiries. It was at this point that the train crew became aware they were at the CBTC boundary - they didn't know SMA3 had gone live! It then transpired they weren't CBTC trained. Luckily we were providing instructor operator support and that was utilised in order to move the train through to Stepney Green. EDIT: I should add that I wasn't there but I believe what I have said is accurate. On Thursday 1st April 2021 , an engineer’s train arrived at Monument eastbound at 11.30, it was unable to communicate with the new signalling system , suspending the District Line between Earl’s Court and Whitechapel and the inner rail Circle Line service until 12.40 a delay of 70 minutes. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2021 16:29:16 GMT
Engineering trains can not run during traffic hours until SMA5 is commissioned regardless if the vehicle is CBTC equipped or not
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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 4, 2021 16:38:06 GMT
Indeed, it was a bit of a catalogue of errors on multiple fronts.
But, then again, we were meant to have the 'Engineering Superhighway' with SMA2... which hasn't happened.
(Still, I won't complain at rarely seeing EVs through Harrow. 😇)
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Jun 4, 2021 16:45:38 GMT
Engineering trains can not run during traffic hours until SMA5 is commissioned regardless if the vehicle is CBTC equipped or not Well some one did not tell Transplant, still that what you get when you split up LT. |
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Post by d7666 on Jun 8, 2021 14:43:13 GMT
Not sure if this should go under SSL resignalling; I think it does as there has been a lot of posts about track layout alterations and end state layouts.
What is happening now with Farringdon City sidings, or whatever the correct name is ?
It might have been reported on this forum, but searching for keyword Farringdon throws up hundreds of messages, and searching without Farringdon even less productive, so I not found an answer, hence this question.
APART from the junction with the Met.City immediately east of Farringdon station, not much other physical work seems to be done, but I oted recently some clearing up around the Barbican west end tunnel portal.
Is there some sort of Crossrail works access from along here that is maybe holding up progress ?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jun 8, 2021 14:52:16 GMT
My understanding is that it's still planned, but not until later in the project. Certainly some of the assets required for the sidings are present (under bags), but there isn't much going on with the track installation yet.
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Post by d7666 on Jun 8, 2021 15:14:58 GMT
My understanding is that it's still planned, but not until later in the project. Certainly some of the assets required for the sidings are present (under bags), but there isn't much going on with the track installation yet. thanks, aligns with part of what I'd heard some time back; but it's all been radio silence of late on this part of the project, even from way before covid. |
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Post by jimbo on Jun 9, 2021 5:01:55 GMT
As an outsider looking in, I noticed that the staff news On The Move back in October about the Track Delivery Unit mentioned that after Neasden depot, they will be starting jobs at Farringdon City sidings and South Harrow for the rest of 2020. They eventually arrived on site at South Harrow sidings this year, so perhaps Farringdon is still to come, or maybe the funding shortage has cut it for now. Anyway the Commissioner's report for today's TfL Board meeting says "an extended programme and cost review are currently under way and will also accommodate the outputs and lessons learnt from delivering SMA3 and 4 into revenue service. We are planning to complete this review by June 2021, which will result in a revised schedule and cost re-forecast." So maybe a new schedule for remaining works will be out soon.
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Post by d7666 on Aug 6, 2021 12:41:21 GMT
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Post by scheduler on Aug 13, 2021 17:45:09 GMT
Engineering trains can not run during traffic hours until SMA5 is commissioned regardless if the vehicle is CBTC equipped or not No train should be authorised to run on LU tracks without timetabling office OK'ing a path for it. In passenger traffic hours, this would need to be by requesting a Special Trains Notice be issued. If this had been done, then Timetables office would have verified the train was CBTC enabled before issuing the notice. No such request was received by the Timetables office, so one wonders how the train got out of the depot in traffic hours in the first place. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Aug 13, 2021 18:14:36 GMT
Absolute nonsense. Trains can and frequently do run in Service Controllers’ timings.
The Met has been running a timetable for over a week now that has had zero input from the scheduling office.
Indeed, one would posit that the Service Controllers know their line’s operations better than people sat in offices. I find paths daily in my signal cabins that scheduling claim don’t exist.
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Tom
Administrator
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Post by Tom on Aug 13, 2021 18:52:45 GMT
No train should be authorised to run on LU tracks without timetabling office OK'ing a path for it. No train should be authorised to run on LU tracks without having an appropriate Certificate of Technical Conformity and Infrastructure Manager's Acceptance. Those are what trains need. Timetable paths are an optional extra which are very much nice to haves, as you are no doubt aware we frequently arrange to run trains in and out of engineering possessions in Line Controller's timings and this is a regular pre-planned element of the work. There does seem to be a common misconception with the Timetables office, (in part perpetated by the former leader, whom I had several dealings with), the railway runs around their work. It doesn't, though it isn't sustainable to run wothout a timetable for any length of time. The person who runs the railway on a day to day basis and decides if trains run on it, is the controller. It's their railway. The timetable is a framework for ensuring that the service operates but the controller can (and frequently does) vary it when necessary as they see fit. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 13, 2021 20:52:39 GMT
To add further meat to the bones, I and my fellow instructor colleagues also regularly run additional empty trains outside the published timetable for training purposes to controllers timings.
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Post by d7666 on Aug 14, 2021 1:17:16 GMT
Absolute nonsense. Trains can and frequently do run in Service Controllers’ timings. The Met has been running a timetable for over a week now that has had zero input from the scheduling office. Indeed, one would posit that the Service Controllers know their line’s operations better than people sat in offices. I find paths daily in my signal cabins that scheduling claim don’t exist. 1000% agree. Controllers can do in less than 42 seconds what those in offices need 42 weeks notice to them take them 42 days to work out. And Controllers work out entire service patterns, including covid contingency services, not just one off because of disruption. I am but a mere engineer who happens to work in a SCC _ and I am in still awe at what the Controllers do, after 15 years at my job, in my third SCC now. Anyone who thinks otherwise ..... I'd better not say what's in my mind else I'd be told off by a Moderator for saying it. |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Aug 14, 2021 1:20:45 GMT
To add further meat to the bones, I and my fellow instructor colleagues also regularly run additional empty trains outside the published timetable for training purposes to controllers timings. The special services run during Covid are another example. Certainly in my neck of the woods it was simply a case of someone (*) deciding how many trains were going to be out and about, and it was literally left up to the signallers to run them as they pleased. With the minimal passenger numbers at the time it did allow for some experimenting, or perhaps better termed playing, with system features not normally used. (* in theory that someone would be the controller, but in practice these things are often more determined by the crew managers depending on how many drivers they have, though these things also tend to be run through the line management as well). Having said all this, I do agree with the point that in general no train should be *planned* to run without a timetabled path. To give a non-LU example of how things can go wrong, on the BLS Merseyrail tour last year the train was run across a junction out of path, just running a couple of minutes early caused a load of reactionary delays at Liverpool Central, delaying a Hunts Cross train, which then was late on its next trip north, which then caused a further delay to something else at Liverpool Central. One of the managers on the train was conspicuously unimpressed that they’d ended up with delay minutes, having spent a lot of time planning the tour so it didn’t affect the normal service. Whilst signallers can certainly keep things moving, it is often the case that there will be unforeseen consequences, probably nothing more than a couple of minutes here or there, but the objective is of course to as far as possible run the railway *to* the timetable, not *near* to it. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 19, 2021 11:21:34 GMT
From Sat 4 September at Hammersmith 22A/B and 23A/B points will be plain-lined, thus preventing eastbound local trains access to the fast (Picc) line and eastbound fast trains access to the eastbound local (District).
Piccadilly trains departing Acton Town platform 4 must not accept WL106 route 1 (EB local)
District trains departing Acton Town platform 4 must not accept WL106 route 2 (EB fast) to Hammersmith
District trains can be reversed via Barons Court sidings in extreme circumstances.
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DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,487
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Post by DWS on Aug 19, 2021 12:34:55 GMT
Any update on when the next section of the upgraded ATO will take place ie west of Sloane Square and the District line in the Earl’s Court area and the Circle line via High Street Kensington to Paddington ( Circle line ) plus High Street to Fulham Broadway via Earl’s Court, not forgetting the Olympia branch. Thanks.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 19, 2021 12:58:29 GMT
Any update on when the next section of the upgraded ATO will take place ie west of Sloane Square and the District line in the Earl’s Court area and the Circle line via High Street Kensington to Paddington ( Circle line ) plus High Street to Fulham Broadway via Earl’s Court, not forgetting the Olympia branch. Thanks. Provisionally 6/7 November 2021, with a fallback to January available |
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vincenture
Quiz tryhard, and an advocate for simpler, less complicated rail routes
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Post by vincenture on Aug 19, 2021 15:15:31 GMT
From Sat 4 September at Hammersmith 22A/B and 23A/B points will be plain-lined, thus preventing eastbound local trains access to the fast (Picc) line and eastbound fast trains access to the eastbound local (District). Piccadilly trains departing Acton Town platform 4 must not accept WL106 route 1 (EB local) District trains departing Acton Town platform 4 must not accept WL106 route 2 (EB fast) to Hammersmith District trains can be reversed via Barons Court sidings in extreme circumstances. Does that mean Piccadilly line trains can't serve District line stations anymore during closure? (Well at least for Chiswick Park and the odd Stamford Brook) |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 19, 2021 16:32:26 GMT
Does that mean Piccadilly line trains can't serve District line stations anymore during closure? (Well at least for Chiswick Park and the odd Stamford Brook) Turnham Green and Ravenscourt Park would still be available eastbound. |
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Post by jimbo on Aug 19, 2021 20:29:45 GMT
From Sat 4 September at Hammersmith 22A/B and 23A/B points will be plain-lined, thus preventing eastbound local trains access to the fast (Picc) line and eastbound fast trains access to the eastbound local (District). Piccadilly trains departing Acton Town platform 4 must not accept WL106 route 1 (EB local) District trains departing Acton Town platform 4 must not accept WL106 route 2 (EB fast) to Hammersmith District trains can be reversed via Barons Court sidings in extreme circumstances. How can District trains be reversed via Barons Court sidings in extreme circumstances if the eastbound is plain lined, leaving no access to the eastbound line? It would seem that they couldn't be reversed from the eastbound, or back to the eastbound. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 19, 2021 21:51:05 GMT
If a wrong signal were to be accepted at Acton Town (WL99 route 2 instead of route 1, for instance) the train could continue to Hammersmith and reverse E-W via Barons Court siding.
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 20, 2021 22:31:11 GMT
From Sat 4 September at Hammersmith 22A/B and 23A/B points will be plain-lined, thus preventing eastbound local trains access to the fast (Picc) line and eastbound fast trains access to the eastbound local (District). Piccadilly trains departing Acton Town platform 4 must not accept WL106 route 1 (EB local) District trains departing Acton Town platform 4 must not accept WL106 route 2 (EB fast) to Hammersmith District trains can be reversed via Barons Court sidings in extreme circumstances. Does that mean Piccadilly line trains can't serve District line stations anymore during closure? (Well at least for Chiswick Park and the odd Stamford Brook) In a way Stamford Brook is like a variation of the station on the Paris Metro where only trains travelling in one direction have a platform, trains travelling in the opposite direction run through non-stop... whilst on a downward sloping section of track. I think this station was only given one platform because it is on a loop. |
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Post by mateusz180 on Aug 20, 2021 23:17:48 GMT
What is the reason for the West Ham to Tower Hill shut this weekend? Also any news on the ATO east of Stepney Green and new time table so the trains are not crawling at a snells pace at the moment.
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