Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 27, 2017 12:50:52 GMT
Does anyone know of a tube map that accurately represents the relative direction between adjacent stations but doesn't necessarily reflect inter-station distances (so that it is roughly as compact as a standard tube map)?
This emerged from a conversation with my girlfriend last night who got on the wrong train at Oakwood as she knew she needed to head south but was presented options for eastbound and westbound (I know the above map is unlikely to help with this issue, but it's how the conversation started).
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Post by crusty54 on Feb 27, 2017 13:07:53 GMT
at Oakwood the trains on both lines are heading west.
The Tube map is a diagram of lines and can't reflect the correct direction all the time.
The need to fit station names on the map wold make it impossible to do what you want in such a small space.
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Post by trt on Feb 27, 2017 13:48:19 GMT
Does anyone know of a tube map that accurately represents the relative direction between adjacent stations but doesn't necessarily reflect inter-station distances (so that it is roughly as compact as a standard tube map)? This emerged from a conversation with my girlfriend last night who got on the wrong train at Oakwood as she knew she needed to head south but was presented options for eastbound and westbound (I know the above map is unlikely to help with this issue, but it's how the conversation started). So... you would need the lines to enter and leave the station "pip" at the correct point of the compass? I don't see how that would help if you need to head, say, South. Look at Euston's arrangement of Victoria and Northern lines. Both "Southbound" services come in from different directions. Mind you, it used to get me at Birmingham New Street that you left to go to Redditch to the south in the opposite direction as you had arrived from Brighton, i.e. you didn't go back on yourself. It took me a while to figure out that the platforms ran East - West.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 27, 2017 14:29:12 GMT
The aim is not to reflect the terminology of the lines but real geography, so King's Cross would be shown as east of Euston, Warren Street south, Mornington Crescent and Camden Town north. This is not an example of where the current tube map is bad for this use. However it does for example show Beckton as southeast of Cyprus when it is actually north, and Euston Square as south rather than west of Euston.
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Post by crusty54 on Feb 27, 2017 17:32:05 GMT
The aim is not to reflect the terminology of the lines but real geography, so King's Cross would be shown as east of Euston, Warren Street south, Mornington Crescent and Camden Town north. This is not an example of where the current tube map is bad for this use. However it does for example show Beckton as southeast of Cyprus when it is actually north, and Euston Square as south rather than west of Euston. When I managed the map I did move Euston Square west of Euston (the current position makes people turn left out of Euston when looking for it) and Shoreditch north of Liverpool Street. Pre DLR days. Research showed that people saw the map as a shorthand for London. Nobody seems to understand these things on the production side now.
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Post by trt on Feb 27, 2017 17:41:27 GMT
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Antje
侵略! S系, でゲソ! The Tube comes from the bottom of London!
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Post by Antje on Feb 27, 2017 19:03:16 GMT
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 27, 2017 19:49:35 GMT
That's based on platform/line designations. What I'm looking for is a map that shows the correct relative geographical position of stations, ignoring how lines are described.
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Post by John Tuthill on Feb 27, 2017 19:54:51 GMT
That's based on platform/line designations. What I'm looking for is a map that shows the correct relative geographical position of stations, ignoring how lines are described. Anything that's pre Harry Beck should fit the bill
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 27, 2017 19:59:47 GMT
That doesn't fulfil the compact requirement. It's only direction between adjacent stations that is desired accurate, accurate distance is not required.
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Post by arun on Feb 27, 2017 21:48:03 GMT
It seems to me Chris that the map you need is the fold-out "London" map that LT produced around 1962. I have one and leaving aside minor details like the absence of the Vic and Jub lines and the LHR extension, it shows the positions of stations superimposed on a real map of London. It also does the same for the BR lines in London.
In an ideal world, TfL would update the map but ......
Technically, I am informed that the LT "map" is actually a chart rather than a map as it doesn't show the relationships of places to the land - It only shows how to get from A to B. Hence the "London" map is actually a map rather than a Beck-like chart.
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 28, 2017 1:21:50 GMT
Oh My Goodness. What a bewildering visual mess! This is very hard to look at and it has so many squiggly lines that it should carry a health warning! Simon
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Post by philthetube on Feb 28, 2017 4:32:30 GMT
I don't see how you could retain direction and ignore distance. As soon as you extend/reduce a distance you lose direction unless you alter all distances accordingly, for example, Amersham is north east of Uxbridge, if you make the stations closer together it would end up north of uxbridge as you could not make matching cuts on the Uxbridge branch because the stations are too close together.
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Post by arun on Feb 28, 2017 10:20:30 GMT
Chris - for your girlfriend so that she knows which way up is Oakwood and for anyone else who has never seen the "London" map - att is the small relevant bit
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Post by PiccNT on Feb 28, 2017 12:18:51 GMT
The problem here is that the Westbound train from Cockfosters to Oakwood is travelling East!
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Post by trt on Feb 28, 2017 12:23:50 GMT
The problem here is that the Westbound train from Cockfosters to Oakwood is travelling East! Reminded of that horrible brown-face thing from The Great St Trinian's Train Robbery. "The up train is on the down line and the down train is on the up line". Can we just refer to up lines and down lines? Although... how does that work at Oxford Circus?
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Post by MoreToJack on Feb 28, 2017 14:19:29 GMT
At least the Picc is basically* an east-west railway throughout.
Meanwhile, the Jubilee is north-south as far as the step-plate at Green Park, before magically transforming into an east-west railway along the extension.
Irrespective of the actual direction of travel, most who are unfamiliar with London find a vague description of the line's 'terminating' description useful.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 17:47:50 GMT
Staff with intranet access look at WebGIS this shows a accurate map of the tube map.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 28, 2017 21:13:06 GMT
I don't see how you could retain direction and ignore distance. As soon as you extend/reduce a distance you lose direction unless you alter all distances accordingly, for example, Amersham is north east of Uxbridge, if you make the stations closer together it would end up north of uxbridge as you could not make matching cuts on the Uxbridge branch because the stations are too close together. The direction from Amersham to Uxbridge is irrelevant as you can't get a direct train between them, nor is there a walking distance interchange between the two. What matters is the direction to adjacent stations, and between a small number of other closely spaced stations (almost all OSI* pairs). *out-of-station interchange, e.g. Euston to Euston Square.
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 1, 2017 2:19:34 GMT
LT maps used to be based on Ordnance Survey maps.
In the 1980s they tried to impose a cost per copy and with print runs of millions the cost was unaffordable. LT did their own survey and later maps were based on this.
Mike Harris' bus maps still show the Tube lines
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Post by brigham on Mar 1, 2017 13:05:34 GMT
Reminded of that horrible brown-face thing from The Great St Trinian's Train Robbery. Oh! You mean Leon Thau? You'll have to remind me, I haven't been keeping up. Is he horrible because he's an Isreali, or because he isn't Indian?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 1, 2017 14:48:09 GMT
Reminded of that horrible brown-face thing from The Great St Trinian's Train Robbery. Oh! You mean Leon Thau? Is he horrible because he's an Isreali, or because he isn't Indian? I hadn't actually realised he wasn't. Frankie Howerd blacked up in that film too. White actors playing Indian parts was not exactly uncommon in that era - both Michael Bates (It ain't half hot mum*)" and Spike Milligan (various, including a memorable episode in "Till Death us Do Part") were born in India during the colonial era and could not only speak English in convincing local accents but spoke fluent Hindi (a talent Milligan and Peter Sellers - who was posted to India in WW2 - put to use in the Goon Show to slip rude Hindi words in that the censors wouldn't detect but various retired memsahibs listening definitely did!) (*Conversely, Bahar Batti, who played Bates's Indian colleague in IAHHM, was born in Finchley) "Train Robbery" is of its time of course - fifty years ago - but there is another racial stereotype early in the film which again would be unlikely to be accepted now, when the new site of the school is announced and a forest of "For sale" boards go up in the local streets, and an unfeasibly large number of people of south Asian appearance are seen leaving one house.
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Post by trt on Mar 2, 2017 0:19:35 GMT
It was the browning up and appalling accent. I had no idea he was Israeli. It's the only bit of that fun film that really makes me cringe. Frankie Howard blacking up to escape is passable, just about, because he does it so badly. I did know about Peter Sellers, Spike Milligan and Michael Bates. It's all very much of its time.
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Post by brigham on Mar 2, 2017 8:28:39 GMT
It was the browning up and appalling accent. I had no idea he was Israeli. It's the only bit of that fun film that really makes me cringe. Frankie Howard blacking up to escape is passable, just about, because he does it so badly. I did know about Peter Sellers, Spike Milligan and Michael Bates. It's all very much of its time. It's certainly a Peter Sellers rip-off, but he does it very well, so all credit to him. When I first saw it, I thought it was Sellers! I hope I never get to the point where I cringe at the sight of actors wearing make-up. It's so much a part of, well, acting.
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Post by trt on Mar 2, 2017 12:06:15 GMT
It was the browning up and appalling accent. I had no idea he was Israeli. It's the only bit of that fun film that really makes me cringe. Frankie Howard blacking up to escape is passable, just about, because he does it so badly. I did know about Peter Sellers, Spike Milligan and Michael Bates. It's all very much of its time. It's certainly a Peter Sellers rip-off, but he does it very well, so all credit to him. When I first saw it, I thought it was Sellers! I hope I never get to the point where I cringe at the sight of actors wearing make-up. It's so much a part of, well, acting.I mean, it's really a stark reminder that the transport system of this country owes a massive debt of gratitude to workers drafted in from overseas in huge numbers in order to rebuild after WW2. So the adage that many rail workers at the time were Indian, Pakistani, Caribbean etc is probably fair. But why use an actor of a different colour to portray a stereo-typed version of a stereo-typed occupation on a... Oh, what the heck, thread drift etc. Up line, down line. Discuss.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2017 12:33:18 GMT
Chris, I don't think it feasible to show frequent changes of direction in a line as it crosses the diagram. Would it solve your "problem" if each stretch of line had an arrow (or two) alongside with the appropriate label "NB", "EB", "SB" or "WB"? Yes, I know it might not be neat, just wondering about the general idea.
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Post by trt on Mar 6, 2017 14:18:51 GMT
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Post by brigham on Mar 6, 2017 16:51:57 GMT
Crivvens!
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