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Post by A60stock on Feb 21, 2017 12:19:07 GMT
Does anyone know when/if the crossrail core section will show up on the tube map as under construction, with the dotted lines? Such as in the way which was done when the Jubilee line extension was being built?
Or will it simply just appear on the map one day?
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Post by malcolmffc on Feb 21, 2017 13:51:41 GMT
TfL doesn't seem to show lines "under construction" on the tube map any more. For most of the time the ELL was being rebuilt there was nothing on the map other than one issue right at the beginning of the closure which was quickly withdrawn. And there's been nothing on the map for the Northern Line extension (or the Met Line extension, if that is still actually under construction  ) |
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Post by phoenixcronin on Feb 21, 2017 20:03:47 GMT
It's a shame that "under construction" is no longer shown as it could maybe get a few non-anoraks interested in Crossrail etc
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Post by superteacher on Feb 21, 2017 20:12:09 GMT
Apparently "under construction" confuses people who think the line is open. That's what I heard anyway.
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Post by domh245 on Feb 21, 2017 20:29:55 GMT
It's a shame that "under construction" is no longer shown as it could maybe get a few non-anoraks interested in Crossrail etc Given the amount of news stories about Crossrail, I'd be amazed if adding it to the tube line actually had any effect in drumming up interest! |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Feb 21, 2017 20:33:32 GMT
In the death, I suppose the test of things is "can you travel on it?" If the answer is no why clutter up a diagram (confusing foreign speaking travellers in particular) with lines that operationally don't exist. For enthusiasts this maybe an issue but as a very small minority of the travelling public they need to bow to the overall majority, whom I'm sure get it right.
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Post by phoenixcronin on Feb 21, 2017 20:37:53 GMT
It's a shame that "under construction" is no longer shown as it could maybe get a few non-anoraks interested in Crossrail etc Given the amount of news stories about Crossrail, I'd be amazed if adding it to the tube line actually had any effect in drumming up interest! Perhaps the Lizbuth line is an exception, but I doubt many people have heard of the Northern Line extension or the Croxley link. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 21, 2017 20:52:14 GMT
In the death, I suppose the test of things is "can you travel on it?" If the answer is no why clutter up a diagram (confusing foreign speaking travellers in particular) with lines that operationally don't exist. For enthusiasts this maybe an issue but as a very small minority of the travelling public they need to bow to the overall majority, whom I'm sure get it right. It's a valid point, but in that case why keep the GOBLIN when it was closed for an extended period? Why not just remove it? If the purple line is to be added prior to the opening then it should be when an opening date is set (even if the date's not published). That way it can be added as a dashed line with "Opening Summer 20xx". |
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Post by stapler on Feb 22, 2017 8:32:27 GMT
You've got to think of the currency of a map, especially the pocket version. It extends well beyond the month, quarter, year, or even decade of issue. So a map issued in Dec 2016, when the Goblin was closed, may actually be used in Sept 2017 or Feb 2018.
A week or so ago, someone gave me a nice 1938 Tube map. Three quarters of it was still usable!
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Post by crusty54 on Feb 22, 2017 9:49:58 GMT
The staged opening of different parts of the line make under construction more complex than a short extension.
The TfL Rail part is already there. Heathrow Connect services from Paddington Main Line will be next. Then Abbey Wood to Paddington Crossrail will start running followed by Shenfield trains.
Finally the whole line starts running.
Chris
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 22, 2017 10:26:41 GMT
The staged opening of different parts of the line make under construction more complex than a short extension. The TfL Rail part is already there. Heathrow Connect services from Paddington Main Line will be next. Then Abbey Wood to Paddington Crossrail will start running followed by Shenfield trains. Finally the whole line starts running. Chris The "under construction" line might appear when Heathrow Connect is added, in order to show the forthcoming connection between the two separate TfL Rail sections. This was done, I recall, when the Jubilee Line was running in two parts before the Green Park- Waterloo linkup. Showing a temporary closure is arguably more important, in order to draw attention to the absence of a service people might be expecting to be there. |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 22, 2017 22:40:54 GMT
A week or so ago, someone gave me a nice 1938 Tube map. Three quarters of it was still usable! And quite possibly it included sections of railway which are shown as "under construction" (or something very similar) but that in the event never opened. btw, was the planned express Northern Line ever shown on London Transport Railways (aka: 'Tube') maps? Simon |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 22, 2017 23:14:22 GMT
The staged opening of different parts of the line make under construction more complex than a short extension. The TfL Rail part is already there. Heathrow Connect services from Paddington Main Line will be next. Then Abbey Wood to Paddington Crossrail will start running followed by Shenfield trains. Finally the whole line starts running. Chris The "under construction" line might appear when Heathrow Connect is added, in order to show the forthcoming connection between the two separate TfL Rail sections. This was done, I recall, when the Jubilee Line was running in two parts before the Green Park- Waterloo linkup. Showing a temporary closure is arguably more important, in order to draw attention to the absence of a service people might be expecting to be there. I can't see any aspect of Crossrail "under construction" being added to the Tube Map. If I've followed the branding rules correctly then we will end up with two lines called "TfL Rail" post May 2018 when H'row Connect is added to TfL control. That runs the risk of confused messages given people have got used to TfL Rail meaning only one service running out of Liverpool St. Given Crossrail is the project name and not the service (as far as TfL are concerned) it will never appear on a Tube Map. I suspect TfL will have quite a presentational task on their hands come Dec 2017 when they will have three Elizabeth Line services on one map none of which are physically connected. As others have said I think TfL have taken a decision that lines under construction never appear on maps to be used by the travelling public. Versions that do show future developments are probably produced for internal purposes. |
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Post by Chris M on Feb 22, 2017 23:33:20 GMT
The rainbow boards do currently say "Liverpool Street to Shenfield" or "Liverpool Street to Shenfield Only" (I forget which) when the entire present line is affected by delays or engineering works.
There isn't really a practical difference between having three disconnected bits of TfL Rail/Crossrail/Elizabeth Line and the present different bits of London Overground which has also grown from what it originally was. Of course, there are issues with the presentation of London Overground (e.g. messages about suspensions and delays that refer to "London Overground" without further detail) but that's been discussed on several occasions already.
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Post by John Tuthill on Feb 22, 2017 23:48:47 GMT
A week or so ago, someone gave me a nice 1938 Tube map. Three quarters of it was still usable! And quite possibly it included sections of railway which are shown as "under construction" (or something very similar) but that in the event never opened. btw, was the planned express Northern Line ever shown on London Transport Railways (aka: 'Tube') maps? Simon Yes Sorry I'm having trouble inserting a copy. |
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Post by toby on Feb 23, 2017 9:45:15 GMT
I got the impression that the Abbey Wood/Heathrow - Paddington sections would be called Elizabeth line and have the new trains from the start even though they are going to different parts of Paddington. Hopefully there'll be a connector blob between the two ends on the map rather than a continuous line, until the low level station is used from the west.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 23, 2017 11:33:06 GMT
I got the impression that the Abbey Wood/Heathrow - Paddington sections would be called Elizabeth line and have the new trains from the start even though they are going to different parts of Paddington. Hopefully there'll be a connector blob between the two ends on the map rather than a continuous line, until the low level station is used from the west. The Elizabeth Line branding kicks in from Dec 2018 when the core section opens. The "disconnected" bits to Heathrow and Liv St - Shenfield will also the name from that date. Prior to that the "TfL Rail" brand will be used for Padd - Heathrow and Liv St - Shenfield. The former will only have the brand name for 7 months (assuming no one changes their mind, of course). I can actually see someone coming along and saying "why bother with all the rebranding for 7 months, just use Heathrow Connect until Elizabeth Line takes over" - if there is some money to be saved from so doing. Depends what's been funded and wrapped up into the cost of the concession contract and what sits separately with TfL. |
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Post by phoenixcronin on Feb 23, 2017 12:21:01 GMT
I got the impression that the Abbey Wood/Heathrow - Paddington sections would be called Elizabeth line and have the new trains from the start even though they are going to different parts of Paddington. Hopefully there'll be a connector blob between the two ends on the map rather than a continuous line, until the low level station is used from the west. ....I can actually see someone coming along and saying "why bother with all the rebranding for 7 months, just use Heathrow Connect until Elizabeth Line takes over" - if there is some money to be saved from so doing. Well, if they were really concerned about rebranding and saving money they would have kept it as Crossrail..... |
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Post by brigham on Feb 23, 2017 12:39:18 GMT
Has someone actually proposed to introduce an 'intermediate brand' for Heathrow Connect, to cover the (presumably uninterrupted)service between changes of operator?
This is EXACTLY the sort of corporate profligate flummery the travelling public does not need. What purpose could be served by it?
More to the point, who thought it up in the first place, who failed to recognise it as utter stupidity, and why are these people still in a job, when competent railway professionals are gradually being squeezed out of work?
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Post by stapler on Feb 23, 2017 16:29:27 GMT
Wasn't this just Boris sucking up to HM?
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Post by Chris M on Feb 23, 2017 17:14:59 GMT
Has someone actually proposed to introduce an 'intermediate brand' for Heathrow Connect, to cover the (presumably uninterrupted)service between changes of operator? This is EXACTLY the sort of corporate profligate flummery the travelling public does not need. What purpose could be served by it? More to the point, who thought it up in the first place, who failed to recognise it as utter stupidity, and why are these people still in a job, when competent railway professionals are gradually being squeezed out of work? Possibly there are trademark, etc. issues that mean TfL can't automatically use the Heathrow Connect brand? If whoever owns it (Heathrow Airport? BAA? First?) don't want to give it up it might cost more to keep it than to use temporary branding. Wasn't this just Boris sucking up to HM? Renaming Crossrail to "Elizabeth Line", yes exactly that. |
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Post by jukes on Feb 24, 2017 19:20:14 GMT
Has someone actually proposed to introduce an 'intermediate brand' for Heathrow Connect, to cover the (presumably uninterrupted)service between changes of operator? This is EXACTLY the sort of corporate profligate flummery the travelling public does not need. What purpose could be served by it? More to the point, who thought it up in the first place, who failed to recognise it as utter stupidity, and why are these people still in a job, when competent railway professionals are gradually being squeezed out of work? Possibly there are trademark, etc. issues that mean TfL can't automatically use the Heathrow Connect brand? If whoever owns it (Heathrow Airport? BAA? First?) don't want to give it up it might cost more to keep it than to use temporary branding. Wasn't this just Boris sucking up to HM? Renaming Crossrail to "Elizabeth Line", yes exactly that. Boris insisted that the name Elizabeth line be used despite TfL suggesting that Crossrail be kept as the overall brand and that the line name be used as a subsidiary brand much the same as on LU. However, BoJo ordered them to do his will. Much the same way as he ordered London Buses to spend money on developing the new Routemaster (and then buying 1008 at £350k a piece) which was his way of making sure TfL was landed with an expensive and totally unnecessary 'memorial' to his mayoralty. |
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Post by phoenixcronin on Feb 24, 2017 19:35:38 GMT
Possibly there are trademark, etc. issues that mean TfL can't automatically use the Heathrow Connect brand? If whoever owns it (Heathrow Airport? BAA? First?) don't want to give it up it might cost more to keep it than to use temporary branding. Renaming Crossrail to "Elizabeth Line", yes exactly that. Boris insisted that the name Elizabeth line be used despite TfL suggesting that Crossrail be kept as the overall brand and that the line name be used as a subsidiary brand much the same as on LU...... Without going too far off topic, THIS is the key issue! Calling it the Crossrail Elizabeth Line would be fine IMHO, as there is a distinction between the service (Crossrail) and the line (Elizabeth) |
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Post by brigham on Feb 25, 2017 14:12:21 GMT
Oh no! The 'Crossrail Elizabeth Line'.
All the other lines have a simple name. Can we PLEASE just give each new line a simple name, and a basic colour, so everyone can see where it comes from, and where it goes.
Leave the questions about who built it, who ran it, when and why, &c. to the enthusiasts. Travelling in London is confusing enough, without introducing further complication.
(Incidentally, I'm not looking forward to 'The Cellnet Central Line either!)
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Post by superteacher on Feb 25, 2017 15:43:02 GMT
The naming of Crossrail / Elizabeth line has been discussed elsewhere. Can we please get back on topic?
If your post contains the phrase "Without wishing to get too far off topic", there's a little clue in there somewhere . .
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