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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 18, 2017 16:46:34 GMT
According to Brian Hardy's book, F stock worked there from 1953 to 1963. Previous to that it was C/D/E stock. (Plus the one-off S stock until 1950)
The only photosI can find of F stock on the ELL both show train 01 (or maybe 01-something)
Hardy says that each train was formed DM-T-T-DM, with one of the DM's being a "single equipped" former control trailer with no guards panel, and the other being one of the original "double equipped" (double ended) DMs with two cabs and a guard's panel.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 18, 2017 20:39:27 GMT
More detail - reading Hardy more closely, I see that the principal difference between double ended cars and single ended cars was the number of power bogies. All motor coaches were built as double enders. All motor coaches had their second driving cab removed in the 1920s. Also in the 1920s, 15 motor coaches had one power bogie removed, thus becoming "single equipped". The power equipment was used to upgrade the seven electric locomotives in the District's fleet. When those locomotives were scrapped in 1939, their power equipment was used in the F stock Control Trailers to form more "single equipped" cars. The former control trailers were all west-facing, the other single-equipped cars were east-facing. Ten units were dedicated to the ELL, but I can find no mention of which units were used, but the photos I referred to above all show units (or possibly the same one each time) with shoebeams on both bogies of the car at the "east" (New Cross) end but only at the inner-end bogie of the "west" (Shoreditch) end car, which suggests that at least that unit had the single-equipped car at the east end, meaning it would have been a former control trailer. c2.staticflickr.com/8/7063/6793553060_473f698d0c_b.jpgfarm1.static.flickr.com/418/20341076345_4a12f803d9.jpg There is also a photo of a set at New Cross in Hardy's book. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 11:03:03 GMT
Thank you again for that information..
Josh
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 27, 2017 7:04:41 GMT
I don't think there is a list of F stock dedicated for the ELL however the ten single equipped DM did have drico fitted where the rest didn't.
The former control trailers only had a shoe beam at the leading end because they received the trailing bogie from the former double equipped cars 7'10''' wheelbase which could accept the two motors. The former double equipped motor cars received the leading bogie from the control trailers which had a shoe beam anyway but only a wheelbase of 7' 3''.
As an aside, the remaining double equipped cars had the guards panel fitted to the former cab area and the end oval windows were panelled over.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 27, 2017 9:52:15 GMT
I don't think there is a list of F stock dedicated for the ELL however the ten single equipped DM did have drico fitted where the rest didn't. The former control trailers only had a shoe beam at the leading end because they received the trailing bogie from the former double equipped cars. Sorry, I'm confused - were the motor bogies on double equipped cars of different designs (despite the cars originally being double-cabbed and therefore presumably symmetrical)? And if the motor bogies fitted to former control trailers were originally trailing end bogies, why was the shoe beam on the leading end, as you say? Not very clear as the west-end (Shoreditch-facing) car is furthest from the camera in all photos I can find, but the photos appear to show a single shoe beam on the trailing (non-driving) end. "drico"? |
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Post by grahamhewett on Feb 27, 2017 10:13:45 GMT
Looking through the Middleton Press book on the ELL, I see F stock with duty numbers 02 and 12; in later years, the numbers seem to have been much higher - 173.
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 27, 2017 20:33:51 GMT
I don't think there is a list of F stock dedicated for the ELL however the ten single equipped DM did have drico fitted where the rest didn't. The former control trailers only had a shoe beam at the leading end because they received the trailing bogie from the former double equipped cars. Sorry, I'm confused - were the motor bogies on double equipped cars of different designs (despite the cars originally being double-cabbed and therefore presumably symmetrical)? And if the motor bogies fitted to former control trailers were originally trailing end bogies, why was the shoe beam on the leading end, as you say? Not very clear as the west-end (Shoreditch-facing) car is furthest from the camera in all photos I can find, but the photos appear to show a single shoe beam on the trailing (non-driving) end. "drico"? All 40 motor cars were double ended and double equipped with 7'10'' wheel base bogies with shoe gear on both. The control trailers had two 7'3'' wheel base bogies with the leading end having a shoe beam. When the 15 single equipped cars were formed removing the second cab and removing the traction motors from the trailing end bogie the former motor bogies remained but de-motored. When the control trailers were converted into single equipped motor cars the traction motors would not fit into the control trailer bogies so these were swapped with the former double equipped de-motored bogies so both single equipped cars (former double ended and control trailers) had a 7'3'' unmotored bogie at the trailing end. The former double equipped cars had the shoe beam at the trailing end because these came from the control trailers. Hope that makes sense.... |
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 27, 2017 20:34:50 GMT
Drico was the communication system used between cans at the time I believe.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 27, 2017 21:08:06 GMT
Drico was the communication system used between cans at the time I believe. DriCo - DRIver to COntroller communication, using tunnel telephone wires, that doesn't discharge traction current. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 27, 2017 22:16:27 GMT
The former double equipped cars had the shoe beam at the trailing end because these came from the control trailers. Hope that makes sense.... perfectly (!) - so the shoe beam is not on the motor bogie. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 28, 2017 7:31:01 GMT
Both types of single equipped cars had a shoe beam on the motor bogie but the former control trailers didn't have one at the trailing end where as the former double equipped cars did.
That was the first way to tell them. The second was the former trailing end cab door was removed and replaced with a window. This window did not have a quarter light and was plain. They did retain the rain strip over
though which looked odd!
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Post by twihlet on Mar 12, 2017 20:15:54 GMT
Can I thank all the above contributors? I am in the process of designing a gauge 3 model of some F stock, and was puzzling about single and double equipped ex-control trailers and driving motor cars and whether trains actually ran with one large and one small bogie. I had composed a number of questions for this distinguished forum only to find all my questions asked and answered in anticipation. Many thanks all. The only (maybe) thing left now is the decision on doors-hand or mechanical operation, do I attempt to model operating doors, or just leave some ajar? I can remember lurching into Edgware Road in a crowded car with the doors wide open. Probably not F stock, though.
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Post by grahamhewett on Mar 13, 2017 17:06:22 GMT
twihlet - probably a Circle train - I can (just) remember these running in high summer <c1952 with the doors left open, much to the terror of my mother...
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 13, 2017 19:09:51 GMT
The sources I can find indicate that F stock was all converted to air operated doors by 1940, long before transfer to the Met. By c1950 all District trains were air operated except the stock used on the Olympia shuttle, finally replaced by R59 stock.
Hand worked doors survived on the Circle until the early fifties and on the Met (slam door hauled and T stock) until 1960.
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 13, 2017 20:07:06 GMT
Yes the old circle stock was last operated on 31/12/50.
The 10 cars of H stock were retained for the exhibition service but were rarely used. They usually took a Q or R stock train at the expense of the Putney line so H stock could have been found at Edgware Road in the mid to late 50s.
As an aside the F stock doors were replaced with cast aluminium replacements after transfer to the Met c1951-53 if you want to model them.
An early 3 car set with hand operated doors would be formed DM-T-CT.
I'd love to see it when it's finished.
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Post by twihlet on May 17, 2017 14:00:57 GMT
More detail - reading Hardy more closely, I see that the principal difference between double ended cars and single ended cars was the number of power bogies. All motor coaches were built as double enders. All motor coaches had their second driving cab removed in the 1920s. Also in the 1920s, 15 motor coaches had one power bogie removed, thus becoming "single equipped". The power equipment was used to upgrade the seven electric locomotives in the District's fleet. When those locomotives were scrapped in 1939, their power equipment was used in the F stock Control Trailers to form more "single equipped" cars. The former control trailers were all west-facing, the other single-equipped cars were east-facing. Ten units were dedicated to the ELL, but I can find no mention of which units were used, but the photos I referred to above all show units (or possibly the same one each time) with shoebeams on both bogies of the car at the "east" (New Cross) end but only at the inner-end bogie of the "west" (Shoreditch) end car, which suggests that at least that unit had the single-equipped car at the east end, meaning it would have been a former control trailer. c2.staticflickr.com/8/7063/6793553060_473f698d0c_b.jpgfarm1.static.flickr.com/418/20341076345_4a12f803d9.jpg There is also a photo of a set at New Cross in Hardy's book. Now it's my turn to be confused. I was under the impression that the two cabs on the motor cars were driver in the front and guard at the rear, whilst the control trailers had only a driving cab. If they had 2 driver's cabs, a couple could have been used as the South Acton shuttle without modification. |
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metman
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Post by metman on May 22, 2017 21:11:56 GMT
That is true! The second cab was made redundant I suspect when the EP brake was first fitted and the flexibility of the F stock was reduced. I suspect the guard would always operate from the trailing end of the driving motor cars for sighting reasons but from the cab of the control trailer on short trains.
The district had quite a few local trains for the South Acton run which were formed M-CT using A then B stock. The shuttle started later and I suspect the management did not want to waste an F stock car on a shuttle?
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