londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Feb 13, 2017 21:07:18 GMT
From the New Tube for London (NTFL), there will be "60% more capacity" available on the Piccadilly (Pic) Line. I use the word available because I am not sure whether all of that will be used up straight away or not. tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tube-improvements/what-we-are-doing/improving-the-trainsThe Metropolitan (Met) Line is due to have improved frequencies too: tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/four-lines-modernisation?intcmp=37984I was thinking the other day about congestion at Rayners Lane/ Uxbridge. Right now, there is often a little congestion between South Harrow/ West Harrow and Rayners Lane. How will TFL manage the route if frequencies on both lines are increased? I was thinking we will see more Pic trains terminating at South Harrow but this isn't ideal because of the layout of the sidings. Trains can be terminated at Ruislip, but again, this may cause the same congestion similar to that at Lane. So what exactly are TFL planning, or am I missing something here? Are the improved frequencies on the Pic line for the Heathrow branch only? Can Uxbridge cope on its own with an increase in turn arounds?
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Post by phoenixcronin on Feb 13, 2017 22:20:25 GMT
Maybe they could step back drivers at Uxbridge? Currently stepping back only occurs at Arnos Grove during the peaks.
Also, having the Met and Picc run under ATO will probably reduce late running and hence increase the number of trains arriving at Rayners at the correct time.
I think this will allow them to squeeze a few more trains through the flat junction at Rayners Lane.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 11:49:33 GMT
The best solution would be to build a new platform at Rayners Lane on the south side where there are currently two old tracks. Major building work would be required to extend the bridge/ tunnel to enable the third platform to be accessible to the Piccadilly line.
This additional platform would provide a new turn around platform, enable easy interchange to the Met line and reduces conflict as trains terminating into platform 3 wouldn't hold back other services.
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Post by crusty54 on Feb 14, 2017 11:53:11 GMT
The best solution would be to build a new platform at Rayners Lane on the south side where there are currently two old tracks. Major building work would be required to extend the bridge/ tunnel to enable the third platform to be accessible to the Piccadilly line. This additional platform would provide a new turn around platform, enable easy interchange to the Met line and reduces conflict as trains terminating into platform 3 wouldn't hold back other services. Back in the day, there was an aspiration to create 2 island platforms.
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Post by nig on Feb 14, 2017 12:43:03 GMT
From the New Tube for London (NTFL), there will be "60% more capacity" available on the Piccadilly (Pic) Line. I use the word available because I am not sure whether all of that will be used up straight away or not. tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tube-improvements/what-we-are-doing/improving-the-trainsThe Metropolitan (Met) Line is due to have improved frequencies too: tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/four-lines-modernisation?intcmp=37984I was thinking the other day about congestion at Rayners Lane/ Uxbridge. Right now, there is often a little congestion between South Harrow/ West Harrow and Rayners Lane. How will TFL manage the route if frequencies on both lines are increased? I was thinking we will see more Pic trains terminating at South Harrow but this isn't ideal because of the layout of the sidings. Trains can be terminated at Ruislip, but again, this may cause the same congestion similar to that at Lane. So what exactly are TFL planning, or am I missing something here? Are the improved frequencies on the Pic line for the Heathrow branch only? Can Uxbridge cope on its own with an increase in turn arounds? You can use both platforms at south harrow to reverse in so dont need to use the sidings but the problem would be most people want to go onto the uxbridge branch and without going rayners will have no way of getting there Think the plan is (or was ) to carry on running trains to uxbridge even if new trains have to be driven manually on it
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Post by piccboy on Feb 14, 2017 13:24:15 GMT
I have two options.
A. Bring the Piccadilly line into SSR (Sub-Surface Railway) signalling programme so that the whole of the Piccadilly is signalled the same. This would solve the problem both at Rayners Lane / Uxbridge and Acton Town / Ealing Common where SSR and Piccadilly share the same track.
B. At Rayners Lane, build a new bay platform on the side of the existing Northbound platform, where the sidings used to exist, for the Piccadilly. A new tunnel into this bay so the Piccadilly doesn't have to touch the Uxbridge branch. Improvements to Uxbridge branch under new signalling should increase the trains per hour on the Met to cover the shortfall from the Piccadilly no longer running there.
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Post by nig on Feb 14, 2017 15:10:08 GMT
I have two options. A. Bring the Piccadilly line into SSR (Sub-Surface Railway) signalling programme so that the whole of the Piccadilly is signalled the same. This would solve the problem both at Rayners Lane / Uxbridge and Acton Town / Ealing Common where SSR and Piccadilly share the same track. B. At Rayners Lane, build a new bay platform on the side of the existing Northbound platform, where the sidings used to exist, for the Piccadilly. A new tunnel into this bay so the Piccadilly doesn't have to touch the Uxbridge branch. Improvements to Uxbridge branch under new signalling should increase the trains per hour on the Met to cover the shortfall from the Piccadilly no longer running there. they was planning to resignal pic line but it got changed in latest contract as too expensive (b) revisions to the technical signalling solution on some of the sections where tracks are shared with other services: i. the Wimbledon branch of the District line, which is Network Rail managed, will now have an ATC signalling overlay rather than full resignalling (matching the established solution for the Richmond branch and consequently reducing design variants); ii. Piccadilly Line trains will not be fitted with new signalling equipment; iii. the section of the Piccadilly line between Rayners Lane Junction and Hanger Lane Junction will no longer be resignalled by the Programme; and iv. the signalling solution for the interoperable sections of the SSR and Piccadilly lines will include conventional signals to allow for continued operation of Piccadilly services on these sections. This solution will provide a suitable starting point for the subsequent New Tube for London Programme modernisation of the Piccadilly line; and as for new tunnel think that will work out bit expensive which cant see them getting funds for .. also cant see the pic line causing much of a delay driving manually down to uxbridge
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Feb 20, 2017 17:43:42 GMT
So regarding the signalling, am I right in thinking that the new trains will run on existing signalling?
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Post by nig on Feb 20, 2017 19:37:12 GMT
So regarding the signalling, am I right in thinking that the new trains will run on existing signalling? they will run on existing signalling to begin with then when all trains are delivered and 73s gone will run on new signaling when its installed that is .. thats the way its done on most lines i do believe
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 20, 2017 22:14:51 GMT
So regarding the signalling, am I right in thinking that the new trains will run on existing signalling? they will run on existing signalling to begin with then when all trains are delivered and 73s gone will run on new signaling when its installed that is .. thats the way its done on most lines i do believe We had a discussion about this recently (which I can't immediately find) - there are several methods of doing things, which is best depends on the circumstances: 1. Withdraw all the old trains, upgrade the line, introduce the new trains. This was done on the Waterloo & City line. 2. Close part of the line running old trains on the old part, upgrade it, run new trains on this section. Repeat for the next section until the line is complete. This only works when you have depots at both ends of the line that have the capacity to store and maintain enough trains to serve most of the line. On LU I think only line where it would be feasible to do this would be the Bakerloo (but that doesn't mean it would be the best option necessarily) 3. Introduce the new trains using the old signalling, upgrade the line when all the old trains have been withdrawn. 4. Upgrade the old trains to run on new signalling temporarily. This was done on the Victoria Line I think.
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Post by phoenixcronin on Feb 20, 2017 22:34:05 GMT
they will run on existing signalling to begin with then when all trains are delivered and 73s gone will run on new signaling when its installed that is .. thats the way its done on most lines i do believe 4. Upgrade the old trains to run on new signalling temporarily. This was done on the Victoria Line I think. No, the Victoria Line was done the other way round. The new Invensys/DTG-R signalling was overlaid on top of the old signalling, with interlocking etc still provided by the old signalling. This meant the 09 stock could run alongside the 67s
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 23:21:42 GMT
4. Upgrade the old trains to run on new signalling temporarily. This was done on the Victoria Line I think. No, the Victoria Line was done the other way round. The new Invensys/DTG-R signalling was overlaid on top of the old signalling, with interlocking etc still provided by the old signalling. This meant the 09 stock could run alongside the 67s Believe it or not it is being considered by 4LM to have the trains fitted with CBTC
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Post by marri260 on Feb 21, 2017 0:25:54 GMT
Believe a large (iirc 20m + in length) Signalling Equipment Room is soon to be built on the two disused sidings behind the Westbound Platform at Rayners Lane. I assume this would therefore rule out building an additional Platform there in the future, along with the current IMR being in the way too!
Not sure when the work is planned to take place. I've heard mutterings that 13 & 14 points (the trailing points allowing both Met and Picc trains to reverse off of Platform 1) are to be replaced in the late summer so perhaps then.
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Post by countryman on Feb 21, 2017 8:46:30 GMT
No, the Victoria Line was done the other way round. The new Invensys/DTG-R signalling was overlaid on top of the old signalling, with interlocking etc still provided by the old signalling. This meant the 09 stock could run alongside the 67s Believe it or not it is being considered by 4LM to have the trains fitted with CBTC Sorry! We are back in the land of the unexplained acronyms. At least, this means nothing to me!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 21, 2017 10:38:22 GMT
Believe it or not it is being considered by 4LM to have the trains fitted with CBTC Sorry! We are back in the land of the unexplained acronyms. At least, this means nothing to me! I didn't know either, but a quick Google finds an informative article about the 4LM or "Four Lines Modernisation programme", CBTC being the "Communications-based train control" proposed for it. The "four lines" are the SSL (subsurface lines).
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 21, 2017 14:37:38 GMT
Sorry! We are back in the land of the unexplained acronyms. At least, this means nothing to me! I didn't know either, but a quick Google finds an informative article about the 4LM or "Four Lines Modernisation programme", CBTC being the "Communications-based train control" proposed for it. The "four lines" are the SSL (subsurface lines). CBTC is listed in our list of abbreviations. I've heard 4LM used to refer to the SSR in the past, but can't remember if the M refers to Management or Modernisation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 14:42:22 GMT
I didn't know either, but a quick Google finds an informative article about the 4LM or "Four Lines Modernisation programme", CBTC being the "Communications-based train control" proposed for it. The "four lines" are the SSL (subsurface lines). CBTC is listed in our list of abbreviations. I've heard 4LM used to refer to the SSR in the past, but can't remember if the M refers to Management or Modernisation. It is 'Modernisation' - 4LM is the new name for the Sub-Surface Railway upgrade, currently under way.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 15:07:18 GMT
They probably change there name again in few months
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Post by domh245 on Feb 21, 2017 15:28:07 GMT
No, the Victoria Line was done the other way round. The new Invensys/DTG-R signalling was overlaid on top of the old signalling, with interlocking etc still provided by the old signalling. This meant the 09 stock could run alongside the 67s Believe it or not it is being considered by 4LM to have the trains fitted with CBTC Wait, so are they planning to fit another form of it, or is that just a reference to the ongoing scheme which is seeing the trains going back to Derby as mentioned here (which is past the consideration stage)?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 15:32:43 GMT
I was referring to the 73 stock not the S stock
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Post by domh245 on Feb 21, 2017 15:46:34 GMT
Ah, that makes sense.
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