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Post by londonstuff on Jan 4, 2017 13:04:56 GMT
Kris,
I'd echo what everyone else says - what you've done is immense. As you've asked for minor comments I've put a few below but obviously in a constructive way and not something I'd ever have looked at unless invited.
- have Euston Square and Russel Square left hand aligned above and below( they're close enough now to make it look like that's what's intended but just not done correctly.
- Goodge St and Tottenham Court Rd. Very slightly above and below each other, could they align?
- Edgware and Burnt Oak - a bigger gap there which distracts from the regularity of the rest of the branch
- Mill Hill East - the positioning of the station name doesn't look right compared to how the others finish. Above the cross at the end of the branch?
- Northern CX branch is so close to the grid line but a few pixels away - could they align like the Hammersmith - Edgware Rd branch does?
- The Jubilee at North Greenwich looks like there are two separate Jub branches, especially as the curve is very sharp.
Again, please do take these in the way they were meant and feel free to think I'm talking rubbish. I think you've done a great job.
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Post by Red Dragon on Jan 4, 2017 13:12:30 GMT
The circle line text should be blue in the key (see wikipedia page). I'd like to echo the comments above; you've done a very good job with this!
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Post by kris on Jan 4, 2017 13:18:31 GMT
Kris, this is awesome.. great work. it's one of the cleanest/nicest looking alternative maps that I've seen people do. (i'm the chap from Londonist btw who made the video interview with the guy at TfL who actually does design the tube map!) you asked for people to nit-pick, and i am happy to do so below, but purely to be constructive, not to be negative. we're at a stage now where London is so complicated it's impossible to make something that everyone is going to be happy with, all we can do it get close. IMHO it's time TfL ditched the tube map (and called it the 'TfL Map' which is what it really is - 40% of the current tube map is not even tube). and just go with large paper maps. the days of the pocket maps and surely numbered. Anyway... Thank you *so* much! All of you actually, because I love all this knowledge combined. I have a deel love for this system, but my knowledge is just starting. Good thing I have a lot of off-time this month to tinker with this design.  It's all constructive to be sure! Done! I didn't know the 'E' word was sensitive around here. Sorry! Very well spotted! It's funny how they picked Piccadily for the 'main' label colour, yet have the intersections black. I chose purely on gut feeling, however today I did get my hands on a nice map which has the 'ownership' of stations, so I updated accordingly. Euston is Black now. Stockwell is still blue on that mapas well. Yeah, you don't 'connect' to a same line. I used the Large TFL Print Map as reference. Off it goes. Or at least hidden this time. Weird that they are not listed on the TFL map. But I'll add them, and the interchange blobs as well. I just spotted that as well while doing the North Curve. That does need a bit of extra work, but it's not a bad idea at all. That entire area could use with a tad of a re-draw. It's on the list! That's the same as the current tube map now. Done For this print, it's gone though. Sorry True, but I like it. But it can be taken off from the PDF. It'll be editable. Seems I missed that! fixed Probably because the older step-free access icons. Fixing it. Done! It is confusing isn't it? Moving the line higher. It was like that on the TFL map. Much more logical indeed without the 4th blob. Done Done. Why isn't there a connection at Hammersmith by the way? It seems silly there isn't one there. I mean, there are 4 lines converging there. Why isn't there a tunnel or something? Thanks for that massive batch of feedback! Here is a map (double the resolution) as it stands right now, with the Paddington area still left to 'clean up'. upload.krisvandesande.be/files/040117/5895610.jpeg |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 13:31:32 GMT
oh my! you responded fast, didn't think you'd take it all on board.
anywhere where you've said "that's what the TfL map does" (e.g DLR going to fourth connector blob at Bank), it's only like that because the DLR is step-free at bank so they have to have a separate blob. on your map, there's no need.. because you're cleaning/tidying up the map from the mess that it is, and one of the unsightly things is the accessibility blobs. so any chance you have to remove a connector blob would be a good thing!
i've tried doing this myself, and one thing i've always looked at is reducijg Waterloo down from 3 connector blobs to just 2. it could be done if you ran the jubilee through at an angle, and didn't require it's own separate connector.
you could always argue that connector blobs should ONLY ever be used to show connections to other tube lines only, and NOT have them when the connection is to National Rail. just have the NR/BR symbol.. and no connection blob at all at Amersham, Chalfont, Walthamstow etc .. The symbol shows that there is a connection there to another rail service. Depends on how clean and radical you want your map to look!
the E******h line is just a personal bug-bear. i know that many here support me in thinking it should just be called Crossrail! i shall always call it Crossrail! not everyone agrees though and the 'E' word is supported by some... heh.
If you put these on a website, you could have variant options. JUST the tube. Tube AND Overground. Tube and Dangleway. Everythng Tube+Overgruond+Crossrail, etc.. etc.. a "mix and match" type thing. thank heavens you didn't put the trams on though! :-)
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Post by kris on Jan 4, 2017 13:44:15 GMT
Kris, I'd echo what everyone else says - what you've done is immense. As you've asked for minor comments I've put a few below but obviously in a constructive way and not something I'd ever have looked at unless invited. Please do! I love all this feedback. (And all these edits to stations really do improve my knowledge of the map. hehe). Done they can and they should. Done It was like that on the TFL map. Spaced them out a bit. Done. What do you think about Edgeware? Funny, since the grid was added afterwards. But yep, added that. Do you think Woodford/Hainault - South Woodford/Fairlop - Snaresbrook/Barkingside should align as well? I moved the Jub a bit down so the curve looks better. Absolutely! Thank you! The circle line text should be blue in the key (see wikipedia page). I'd like to echo the comments above; you've done a very good job with this! thank you .. I added that for now .. I'm just not sure it looks 'right', despite it being official. We'll see if it makes it to the print version.  |
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Post by kris on Jan 4, 2017 13:55:50 GMT
oh my! you responded fast, didn't think you'd take it all on board. Heh, as I said, it's a slow wednesday, and it's good to take my mind of the stress of an impending move. Absolutely. Like this?  True, But I really like the design of the blobs. The placement of the NR icons really does give me a headache. There isn't any consistency on alignment it seems. Hah, okay! The only problem with that is there is a bit of work with the connecting dots. Because each line itself is a separate layer. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 4, 2017 14:17:00 GMT
Oxford Circus label would look tidier on two lines, to avoid it crashing into the next station east (whose cumbersomely long name is a real nuisance in such a congested area, as well as being ambiguous - I always think of it as Centre Point). Brave and bold to colour the names/labels! love it! One version of the Beck map did that, but duplicated the labels where there were two lines. Very untidy Going by the "owning" line seems a better solution, and is actually potentially useful, although it does look odd in places. You also have to deal with stations which are not operated by LUL, such as Richmond. That's the same as the current tube map now. . Maybe so, but it's still confusing and without the Overground you have the space to make it clearer Why isn't there a connection at Hammersmith by the way? It seems silly there isn't one there. I mean, there are 4 lines converging there. Why isn't there a tunnel or something? Historically, because that would have required co-operation between the metropolitan and the District - unthinkable until 1933! In any case, it would be difficult to engineer, because the District station is in a cutting and has two island platforms, whilst the Met is at street level. Any connection would either have to have three changes of level (to get under the road and over the eastbound District) or go really deep. In fact, there used to be a tunnel under the street, and very unsavoury it was too. Crossing the Broadway on the level is actually more convenient. Remember also that until 1906 there was no need for a pedestrian connection as there were direct rains from the Paddington direction towards Turnham Green and Richmond. |
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Post by londonstuff on Jan 4, 2017 14:19:31 GMT
What's the latest version showing any of today's changes - I can't seem to see the latest link.
Edit: Edgware looks okay - perhaps because the name is a few pixels further away from the line than MHE is. Perhaps that's what's needed there.
Crossrail: Perhaps move the middle section up to go on the grid line like everywhere else. It would also make it further from Oxford Circus showing a clearer non-change there.
Edit 2: Can the name Baker Street be moved up to align with the other stations left and right?
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Post by kris on Jan 4, 2017 14:23:44 GMT
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Post by kris on Jan 4, 2017 14:28:27 GMT
Oxford Circus label would look tidier on two lines, to avoid it crashing into the next station east (whose cumbersomely long name is a real nuisance in such a congested area, as well as being ambiguous - I always think of it as Centre Point). Brave and bold to colour the names/labels! love it! One version of the Beck map did that, but duplicated the labels where there were two lines. Very untidy Going by the "owning" line seems a better solution, and is actually potentially useful, although it does look odd in places. You also have to deal with stations which are not operated by LUL, such as Richmond. True. And there are some odd-ones, like Aldgate is District despite no line there, and the colours for Circle/H&C are combined into yellow. Sometimes I chose a different color because it just looks better and more uniform. That's the same as the current tube map now. . Maybe so, but it's still confusing and without the Overground you have the space to make it clearer How do you suggest we draw that with the Crossrail there exactly? Why isn't there a connection at Hammersmith by the way? It seems silly there isn't one there. I mean, there are 4 lines converging there. Why isn't there a tunnel or something? Historically, because that would have required co-operation between the metropolitan and the District - unthinkable until 1933! In any case, it would be difficult to engineer, because the District station is in a cutting and has two island platforms, whilst the Met is at street level. Any connection would either have to have three changes of level (to get under the road and over the eastbound District) or go really deep. In fact, there used to be a tunnel under the street, and very unsavoury it was too. Crossing the Broadway on the level is actually more convenient. Remember also that until 1906 there was no need for a pedestrian connection as there were direct rains from the Paddington direction towards Turnham Green and Richmond. Very enlightening! Thanks! I guess it's one of those little nuggets that make it such an interesting system. |
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Post by kris on Jan 4, 2017 14:39:52 GMT
What's the latest version showing any of today's changes - I can't seem to see the latest link. Edit: Edgware looks okay - perhaps because the name is a few pixels further away from the line than MHE is. Perhaps that's what's needed there. Crossrail: Perhaps move the middle section up to go on the grid line like everywhere else. It would also make it further from Oxford Circus showing a clearer non-change there. Edit 2: Can the name Baker Street be moved up to align with the other stations left and right? I'll work on that once I cleaned out the Paddington area. The name alignments are also fixed now, just like the Edgeware road was a tad too low. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jan 4, 2017 15:51:12 GMT
Seeing this made me laugh out loud. I was so concerned that the circles on two stations on the Bakerloo line were not centred on the line that I didn't even clock that they were interchange symbols where there was no interchange! It's looking better and better, but I will be very glad when it will be possible to see it without the 'dangleware' line. I know what you mean about balance, so as an experiment I did crudely change the colour of the dangler, and it looks much better with a more subdued colour. Apart from the problem purists have with it in principle, it really screams at you, at the moment, because it contrasts so highly with everything else around it. |
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Post by kris on Jan 4, 2017 16:11:41 GMT
Here is the version as of this afternoon: upload.krisvandesande.be/files/040117/6285442.jpeg- H&C / Circle bend is now wider, to keep with the 45° angle, and bring it closer to the finished Crossrail map. - The Crossrail is now aligned with the grid and has more space from the Central Line. - The Bakerloo line goes lower at Paddington, creating more visual rest. - Edgeware Road station is *MUCH* cleaner now - Double Interchange Blob for Paddington instead of Quadrupple - All double text labels are now 1 text field instead of 2, making the tiny variations in spacing a thing of the past. - Liverpool street junction with Crossrail is now also labeled. @class411: As soon as it's 100% finished, I'll send you a special version with a more muted Dangleware. Or I'll take it out. |
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Post by londonstuff on Jan 4, 2017 16:20:08 GMT
What program are you using to do it? Illustrator?
Perhaps move the CX branch across a pixel or two so it aligns with the grid?
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Post by kris on Jan 4, 2017 16:25:44 GMT
What program are you using to do it? Illustrator? Perhaps move the CX branch across a pixel or two so it aligns with the grid? Illustrator yep. Do you think it should be *on* the line? I placed it against it, just like the H&C and the Crossrail. |
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Post by rail2210 on Jan 4, 2017 16:30:27 GMT
Here is the version as of this afternoon: upload.krisvandesande.be/files/040117/6285442.jpeg- H&C / Circle bend is now wider, to keep with the 45° angle, and bring it closer to the finished Crossrail map. - The Crossrail is now aligned with the grid and has more space from the Central Line. - The Bakerloo line goes lower at Paddington, creating more visual rest. - Edgeware Road station is *MUCH* cleaner now - Double Interchange Blob for Paddington instead of Quadrupple - All double text labels are now 1 text field instead of 2, making the tiny variations in spacing a thing of the past. - Liverpool street junction with Crossrail is now also labeled. @class411: As soon as it's 100% finished, I'll send you a special version with a more muted Dangleware. Or I'll take it out. As others have said, the map looks really good - not really anything I could say needs changing. One thing I did notice, is that at some Overground interchange stations, you have added the National Rail symbol and you haven't at others. (for example, Walthamstow Central has one, Gunnersbury and Willesden Jct don't. |
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Post by kris on Jan 4, 2017 16:39:04 GMT
Here is the version as of this afternoon: upload.krisvandesande.be/files/040117/6285442.jpeg- H&C / Circle bend is now wider, to keep with the 45° angle, and bring it closer to the finished Crossrail map. - The Crossrail is now aligned with the grid and has more space from the Central Line. - The Bakerloo line goes lower at Paddington, creating more visual rest. - Edgeware Road station is *MUCH* cleaner now - Double Interchange Blob for Paddington instead of Quadrupple - All double text labels are now 1 text field instead of 2, making the tiny variations in spacing a thing of the past. - Liverpool street junction with Crossrail is now also labeled. @class411: As soon as it's 100% finished, I'll send you a special version with a more muted Dangleware. Or I'll take it out. As others have said, the map looks really good - not really anything I could say needs changing. One thing I did notice, is that at some Overground interchange stations, you have added the National Rail symbol and you haven't at others. (for example, Walthamstow Central has one, Gunnersbury and Willesden Jct don't. I copied them from the TFL map, where Gunnersby doesn't have a rail icon, only an interchange icon, which I assumed it was interchange to the Overground. |
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Post by rail2210 on Jan 4, 2017 16:48:31 GMT
As others have said, the map looks really good - not really anything I could say needs changing. One thing I did notice, is that at some Overground interchange stations, you have added the National Rail symbol and you haven't at others. (for example, Walthamstow Central has one, Gunnersbury and Willesden Jct don't. I copied them from the TFL map, where Gunnersby doesn't have a rail icon, only an interchange icon, which I assumed it was interchange to the Overground. That's right, so it just looks like the symbol at Walthamstow Central can be removed then, as it is Overground only. (Although the Overground is technically a National Rail service, it is not really branded by TfL as such.) |
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Post by kris on Jan 4, 2017 16:56:02 GMT
That's right, so it just looks like the symbol at Walthamstow Central can be removed then, as it is Overground only. Begone it be! |
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Post by Red Dragon on Jan 4, 2017 17:23:57 GMT
It's me again! Sorry. The W&C is also has blue text for the line banner. Also some of the zones have random bits caused by the removal of LO. Not a huge problem but a blob near Wimbledon sticks out. Keep up the good work ! EDIT: and the NR symbol at Shepherds Bush is out of alignment!
EDIT II: and at Tottenham Hale. The text at Heathrow T5 is a bit close to the line. |
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Post by Chris M on Jan 4, 2017 17:39:13 GMT
The zone boundaries can be redrawn to be smoother now they don't have to accommodate trams or the Overground, e.g. zones 7 and 8 don't need to exist near Epping, and zone 4 (actually the tram special zone) doesn't need to approach Wimbledon.
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Post by kris on Jan 4, 2017 17:43:36 GMT
It's me again! Sorry. The W&C is also has blue text for the line banner. Also some of the zones have random bits caused by the removal of LO. Not a huge problem but a blob near Wimbledon sticks out. Keep up the good work ! EDIT: and the NR symbol at Shepherds Bush is out of alignment!
EDIT II: and at Tottenham Hale. The text at Heathrow T5 is a bit close to the line. The zone boundaries can be redrawn to be smoother now they don't have to accommodate trams or the Overground, e.g. zones 7 and 8 don't need to exist near Epping, and zone 4 (actually the tram special zone) doesn't need to approach Wimbledon. Both fixed :-) |
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Post by Chris M on Jan 4, 2017 18:01:34 GMT
I'd also move Edgware Road Circle and District slightly right so the centre of the interchange symbol is centre aligned with the tick for the Bakerloo Line station. There is a thin white border where the Met crosses the Bakerloo south of Kenton but not where any other lines cross. You might be able to remove a kink in the Jubilee line around Waterloo by having it continue straight from Westminster before turning once, see the 1999 map for example. There are some tiny misalignments between the District and H&C between Stepney Green and Plaistow so there are thin spaces between them at a couple of points. Also between the Circle and District between Westminster and Embankment (and maybe the curve east of Temple) Woodford, South Woodford and Snaresbrook should either be vertically centred and evenly spaced between the junctions at Woodford and Leytonstone or vertically aligned with Hainault, Fairlop and Barkingside. Possibly adjust the northern blob at Baker Street so the diagonal of the Met passes through the middle of it. The right-most blob at Stratford seems to be 1-2 pixels lower than the other two. These are extreme nit-picking though (I had to zoom in to about 4-500% to see some of them) |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 18:55:05 GMT
Kris, it looks SO good!
more nit-picking:
- West India Quay crashes the Zone2/3 border
- Tottenham Hale NR symbol
- West Hampstead label is too far away from connector blob
i also now think that NR symbols should only be shown where it connects to NR services, and not Overground services ... seeing as you've omitted Overground services from the map ... :-)
Great work though!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 4, 2017 19:19:00 GMT
i also now think that NR symbols should only be shown where it connects to NR services, and not Overground services ... seeing as you've omitted Overground services from the map ... :-) On the contrary, whether or not the Overground lines are shown, it would be inconsistent to show interchange with other NR services but not with LO. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Jan 4, 2017 22:16:58 GMT
This is fabulous! What great work. A few nitpicks from me, but they're all largely minor inconsistencies:
-If you use blue for the 'Circle' describer you should also use it for the 'Hammersmith & City' and 'Waterloo & City' lines
-If you're going to label the lines by 'owning' station there's quite a few that are wrong. I'd also make a case that all Tube stations connecting to Crossrail should be coloured by line, rather than by XR, as it's a Tube map and, officially, in most cases the XR station is a separate NR station. And I'd go further to say that XR should be removed on the same basis as LO - i.e. it's NR and not the Tube! I digress...
--Metropolitan line: Uxbridge, Ickenham, Rayners Lane, Finchley Road, King's Cross St. Pancras
--Central line: Monument(!) [Considered part of Bank & Monument complex]
--Circle and Hammersmith & City lines: Edgware Road, Great Portland Street, Euston Square, Farringdon, Barbican, Moorgate, Liverpool Street, Aldgate, Tower Hill, Bayswater. N.B. LU colour all of these pink
--Bakerloo line: Piccadilly Circus
--District line: Gloucester Road, Barons Court, Hammersmith (District) [Maybe messy to include twice, but they are two entirely separate stations]
--Jubilee line: Bond Street, Canary Wharf, Canning Town [Same justification as XR], West Ham [As prev], Stratford
--Northern line: TCR
--Victoria line: Green Park, Euston
--Arguably, Olympia is primarily an LO station (and staffed as such), as would Willesden Jnct. But as there's no LO that's probably okay
-Walthamstow's aligning doesn't sit right to my eye, largely due to it's proximity to Stratford Int. with different spacing. Same is also true for Beckton.
-Can West Ham be done with two blobs?
-Agreed with previous comments about neatening the zone boundaries, and without XR we could have a kink-less Central...
Look forward to the next revision!
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jan 5, 2017 9:18:36 GMT
And I'd go further to say that XR should be removed on the same basis as LO - i.e. it's NR and not the Tube! I digress... Aesthetically it is very useful, partly because it fills out the south west and north east corners, but more importantly because it helps to break up the mass of cyan of the DLR at the south east. |
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Post by kris on Jan 16, 2017 19:21:25 GMT
It's been a while, but here is a big update to the map. I reverted the white text in the legend, since it's really an Art print, and I can do without that little bit of accuracy. upload.krisvandesande.be/files/160117/5247810.jpegI used the Station Management Overview map for the correct label colour, but I might change the odd ones later on for aesthetic reasons. (Aldgate, South Kensington etc for example). |
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 16, 2017 19:38:59 GMT
It's been a while, but here is a big update to the map. I reverted the white text in the legend, since it's really an Art print, and I can do without that little bit of accuracy. upload.krisvandesande.be/files/160117/4274256.jpegI used the Station Management Overview map for the correct label colour, but I might change the odd ones later on for aesthetic reasons. (Aldgate, South Kensington etc for example). Yet more excellent work kris. A few questions spring to mind: - Why does the dangleway have an icon on the map, when your key notes that it's a cable car? Personally I'd like to see it go completely, but keep the icons at the interchanges (as you have for river and coach services).
- What rule have you used when placing the Network Rail arrows? Some stations have it after the name with no space, others have a space. Others it's above, or below.
- Why isn't there a credit to yourself for drawing it (perhaps with a note of thanks to the membership of this forum)?
- What rule have you applied for the justification of station names that are on two lines? Some are left justified, others are centred.
Finally, there appears to be an "Airprox" incident in progress at City Airport. |
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Post by kris on Jan 16, 2017 19:47:19 GMT
Yet more excellent work kris . A few questions spring to mind: - Why does the dangleway have an icon on the map, when your key notes that it's a cable car? Personally I'd like to see it go completely, but keep the icons at the interchanges (as you have for river and coach services).
- What rule have you used when placing the Network Rail arrows? Some stations have it after the name with no space, others have a space. Others it's above, or below.
- Why isn't there a credit to yourself for drawing it (perhaps with a note of thanks to the membership of this forum)?
- What rule have you applied for the justification of station names that are on two lines? Some are left justified, others are centred.
Finally, there appears to be an "Airprox" incident in progress at City Airport. 1. It's a cute icon that already existed, so I never changed that. Just like: 2. data that already existed on the current TFL map. They don't seem to have a fixed design language for this as far as I can tell. A wrong that I will have to correct, but I do have to find the best way. 3. Because it's meant to be a print for myself, I didn't want a credit on the file itself. However, I'm going to create a mini-website where the file can be downloaded for print, with its conditions, and linking to this fine community for sure. 4. Depending on the proximity to the station line or circle. If it's on the left of the icon, it's aligned right, on top or bottom it's centred, and if it's on the right it's aligned right. 5. Air Control has been notified, and the plane has been detached from the label. |
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