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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 20:14:33 GMT
Hi Guys, I'm interested to know LU's strategies for maintaining a good service when there is an issue - trespasser on track, signal failure, etc. I am well aware of early termination/ changing destination/ fast trains on the Met.I have heard some members on this forum mentioning 'thinning out the service' - why would you reduce the number of train - surely the trains would be very packed then ?? Also which are the statistically the worst lines for signal failures/ recovering from them. I know that even if a small thing happens on the SSR - who service can be messed up for hours .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 21:09:38 GMT
The worst line to be affected by " issues " in my opinion has got to be the Piccadilly Line due to reversing points being more at the outer ends of the line which are more user friendly then say Down Street siding.
LU will try and run a service as much as they can during delays but that doesn't help us (signal department) as the controller might only give us 2mins then we have to get back on the train and go around again, wait for access and the whole process starts again until the problem is diagnosed or fixed.
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Post by roboverground on Jan 14, 2017 20:01:43 GMT
A handful of Network Incident Response Managers driven by British Transport Police officers (also trained as medics) are strategically placed to respond in a marked police vehicle to certain disruptive incidents where the flow of passengers is seriously disrupted and trains stalled away from stations.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 14, 2017 20:36:05 GMT
The ERU (Emergency Response Unit) have a fire-engine driven (IIRC) by BTP to allow them rapid transit to an incident site where their services are needed. They had several bits on display at a recent Acton depot open day and it was fascinating to watch them repeatedly shaving ¼" off a piece of rail. eg: London Underground E R U 2595 by Ken, on Flickr
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2017 23:14:24 GMT
A handful of Network Incident Response Managers driven by British Transport Police officers (also trained as medics) are strategically placed to respond in a marked police vehicle to certain disruptive incidents where the flow of passengers is seriously disrupted and trains stalled away from stations. From our side they can be more of a pain and a little knowledge from previous failures is dangerous as some bad decisions have taken place in the past.
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Post by North End on Jan 15, 2017 14:55:07 GMT
A handful of Network Incident Response Managers driven by British Transport Police officers (also trained as medics) are strategically placed to respond in a marked police vehicle to certain disruptive incidents where the flow of passengers is seriously disrupted and trains stalled away from stations. From our side they can be more of a pain and a little knowledge from previous failures is dangerous as some bad decisions have taken place in the past. I think they're a pain from everyone's side. Certainly where I am they have turned up and made some extremely questionable decisions, which have ultimately added quite a bit of time to the resolution of the issue in hand. As well as being rather clueless, they're also pretty unprofessional too - in one memorable case threatening to arrest a local member of staff who questioned one of them who was about to do something extremely unsafe.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 30, 2017 22:52:59 GMT
The ERU (Emergency Response Unit) have a fire-engine driven (IIRC) by BTP to allow them rapid transit to an incident site where their services are needed. They had several bits on display at a recent Acton depot open day and it was fascinating to watch them repeatedly shaving ¼" off a piece of rail. The vehicle shown is an 'ordinary' ERU vehicle driven by a member of the ERU Team. The BTP driven vehicles have different markings and blue lights: London Underground ERU 2593 by Ken, on Flickr these Mercedes vehicles are now being replaced with new Volvo FLs:
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Post by superteacher on Feb 1, 2017 20:56:17 GMT
Regarding "thinning" the service, it is sometimes necessary. After a delay, there will be a lot of trains in the wrong place. Then you have the issue of when one driver finishes on a train, the relieving driver may not be there to pick up the train. You then get a queue of trains behind. All this adds delays to an already delayed service. Thinning the service provides some breathing space.
Another common strategy is to reform a train which is where a train changes its identity. For example, train 23 is running very late, arrives at the station where the driver books off. The driver due to take over train 23 is not there due to him being delayed on his existing train. However, a driver who has just started duty is due to pick up train 3. Rather than making him wait for the existing train 3 (which is also probably delayed), they turn train 23 into 3, and the driver is on his way.
This strategy stops the train from hanging around for ages. The drawback is that you now have two train 3's (that's assuming the original train 3 wasn't stabled during a thinning of the service.)
I don't think the general public have any idea how difficult handling delays can be!
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Post by banana99 on Feb 1, 2017 22:38:00 GMT
Regarding "thinning" the service, it is sometimes necessary. After a delay, there will be a lot of trains in the wrong place. Then you have the issue of when one driver finishes on a train, the relieving driver may not be there to pick up the train. You then get a queue of trains behind. All this adds delays to an already delayed service. Thinning the service provides some breathing space. Another common strategy is to reform a train which is where a train changes its identity. For example, train 23 is running very late, arrives at the station where the driver books off. The driver due to take over train 23 is not there due to him being delayed on his existing train. However, a driver who has just started duty is due to pick up train 3. Rather than making him wait for the existing train 3 (which is also probably delayed), they turn train 23 into 3, and the driver is on his way. This strategy stops the train from hanging around for ages. The drawback is that you now have two train 3's (that's assuming the original train 3 wasn't stabled during a thinning of the service.) I don't think the general public have any idea how difficult handling delays can be! It's an interesting one. I would have thought that they are still the same number of trains available, and the same number of drivers. So the logic would imply that the same service can be run as long as the trains and drivers can take the disruption rather than the fare-paying public.
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Post by domh245 on Feb 1, 2017 23:19:39 GMT
Regarding "thinning" the service, it is sometimes necessary. After a delay, there will be a lot of trains in the wrong place. Then you have the issue of when one driver finishes on a train, the relieving driver may not be there to pick up the train. You then get a queue of trains behind. All this adds delays to an already delayed service. Thinning the service provides some breathing space. Another common strategy is to reform a train which is where a train changes its identity. For example, train 23 is running very late, arrives at the station where the driver books off. The driver due to take over train 23 is not there due to him being delayed on his existing train. However, a driver who has just started duty is due to pick up train 3. Rather than making him wait for the existing train 3 (which is also probably delayed), they turn train 23 into 3, and the driver is on his way. This strategy stops the train from hanging around for ages. The drawback is that you now have two train 3's (that's assuming the original train 3 wasn't stabled during a thinning of the service.) I don't think the general public have any idea how difficult handling delays can be! It's an interesting one. I would have thought that they are still the same number of trains available, and the same number of drivers. So the logic would imply that the same service can be run as long as the trains and drivers can take the disruption rather than the fare-paying public. But that implies that a train is a train, and a driver is a driver (and also to some extent that timetables are for laughs). That is a too simplistic view because as superteacher touches on, you can't just take driver A and tell him to do what driver B was doing. Driver A has their roster which says that they book on at a certain time, book off at a certain time, and have a break at a certain time, they also have the legal restriction on the total and consecutive* number of hours that they have been driving (which is what their Roster is based around), and Driver B has their roster which has something completely different. Therefore, you can't just drop the delay onto the drivers because you'll soon end up with drivers who've run out of hours with no easy way of getting a replacement to them. Trains have a similar issue where they may be needed at a specific location for maintenance that evening, but that isn't as much of an issue as drivers. There is also the need to consider circumstances where you may have an entire line's worth of trains sitting behind (for example) a stalled train, and nothing going the other way. Hopefully, this would be noticed fairly quickly and some trains turned early to prevent such an occurrence, but it can be prudent sometimes to turn a train early to provide some service to a stretch of line that might have been otherwise deprived if the post-delay tactic was to just keep on going. *At least, that is what I recall
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Post by Chris M on Feb 1, 2017 23:32:50 GMT
The problem is that neither trains nor drivers are completely interchangeable. Trains have maintenance schedules and things like that so, as far as possible, they need to end up where they were planned to, and if you have the wrong number of trains at each location you'll have delays at the start of traffic tomorrow. At the basic end, trains need to have checks done every 24 hours so a train that started the day in sidings needs to end the day at a depot. Heavier maintenance may also require a specific depot. If you are running a mixed fleet of trains this is even more complicated as you need to have the right number of each type at each location (and not every location can necessarily handle every type of train). This means that even though it might seem very simple to turn train 9 into train 19, you will have to shuffle things again later on if train 19 finishes its day at e.g. Parsons Green sidings but the unit involved is due its 14-day exam at Upminster Depot.
Drivers are even less flexible, as they have a limited amount of time they can drive for (in one stretch and in total) and as soon as that is exceeded they have to take the train to the first safe place to stop (if that isn't where they currently are) and can't take it any further. This could be very much in the way of other things so controllers will try to avoid drivers running out of hours if at all possible. They also need end up at the right place (normally I think this is the same place they started from, but there might be exceptions?), if they don't then you have to get them there - either as a passenger on another train or in a taxi. Overtime is also not free (although this wont, I think, be the controller's primary consideration it will be on the list) so if you have a driver due to finish in 90 minutes at Ealing Common who is currently at Earl's Court it's not the best idea to put them on a train going to Upminster. You could just put the train as a Tower Hill and back, but if the bay platform at Tower Hill will be occupied when it gets there you'll be delaying anything behind it, and the unit might need to end the day at Upminster. There are probably more things that I've not thought of that need juggling too. unit needs to be at
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 2, 2017 10:42:05 GMT
[Drivers] also need end up at the right place (normally I think this is the same place they started from, but there might be exceptions?), if they don't then you have to get them there - either as a passenger on another train or in a taxi. Although operators (and LU are by no means the worst offenders in this) sometimes give the impression that they place a higher priority on getting their own staff home on time than they do on getting their clients home on time. However false that impression is, it is not very good PR.
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Post by peterc on Feb 2, 2017 11:23:48 GMT
The press really hate these "jobsworths" who insist on obeying the law.
But they wouldn't let the railway off if a driver has an accident, either driving a train or driving his car home, if he had been made to work in excess of his legal hours.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 2, 2017 15:10:06 GMT
The press really hate these "jobsworths" who insist on obeying the law. But they wouldn't let the railway off if a driver has an accident, either driving a train or driving his car home, if he had been made to work in excess of his legal hours. Of course not, and I am sure no-one would expect drivers to exceed their hours. But getting home late (on your own time) is something everyone else has to put up with from time to time, even if they work a fixed 9-to-5. Many of them drive cars as all or part of that journey. Some have safety-critical jobs. I know people who have left their car at the station, or at work, and got a taxi home because they felt too tired to drive themselves, either because of transport delays or after working late. And in the latter case the better employers will pay for the taxi.
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Post by Chris M on Feb 3, 2017 12:24:15 GMT
A tube driver's hours run from the time they book on until the time they book off, the latter can (usually?) only be done at the scheduled place. There is also a legal requirement for a certain time between shifts so if a driver books off say 2 hours late, that could mean they cannot book on the next day until 2 hours after they were scheduled to. If you have enough spare drivers to cover all the affected drivers, and nobody else is sick or on a training day or the like then it's not too much of a problem. However if you don't have enough spare drivers (and the margins are getting tighter, based on aslefshrugged's posts) then you have cancellations and delays on the next shift too. Obviously if things are already delayed then recovering from an incident is going to be harder. The point is that it is actually in everybody's long-term interest in most cases for drivers and trains to end up where they are meant to. There are times when it is required to taxi drivers around late but remember the overtime and taxi fare costs have to be paid for out of your fares, and that is money that cannot then be spent on maintenance, upgrades, etc.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Feb 4, 2017 9:34:51 GMT
A tube driver's hours run from the time they book on until the time they book off, the latter can (usually?) only be done at the scheduled place. There is also a legal requirement for a certain time between shifts so if a driver books off say 2 hours late, that could mean they cannot book on the next day until 2 hours after they were scheduled to. If you have enough spare drivers to cover all the affected drivers, and nobody else is sick or on a training day or the like then it's not too much of a problem. However if you don't have enough spare drivers (and the margins are getting tighter, based on aslefshrugged 's posts) then you have cancellations and delays on the next shift too. Obviously if things are already delayed then recovering from an incident is going to be harder. The point is that it is actually in everybody's long-term interest in most cases for drivers and trains to end up where they are meant to. There are times when it is required to taxi drivers around late but remember the overtime and taxi fare costs have to be paid for out of your fares, and that is money that cannot then be spent on maintenance, upgrades, etc. There has to be a 12 hour rest period between booking off and booking back on. So if you didn't finish until 01:30 and you were due to book on again at 13:00 they'd have to put a spare on your first train until it got back to wherever you were booking on. If there's no spare available then the train would either be left on the platform if possible or where not possible the train would have to be put away in the nearest depot or siding. Obviously you'd need to put that train away early otherwise the driver being relieved would be late finishing their duty or starting their meal break which might mean they wouldn't be able to pick up their next train and you need to cover them with a spare (if you've got one).
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