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Post by PiccNT on Nov 18, 2016 12:06:33 GMT
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rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286 
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Post by rincew1nd on Nov 18, 2016 13:41:38 GMT
I would have thought these are the most popular tickets, perhaps this is a case of "read the small print carefully".
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Post by phil on Nov 18, 2016 13:48:44 GMT
Yup, and there is zero chance of the Treasury agreeing with his call to freeze National Rail fares. I presume that since the Overground routes (with the exception of the ELL core) are still technically an integral part of the national rail network (its just that the act of 'franchising' has been devolved with the proviso that TfL cannot take it back in house - i.e. nationalise Overground services) and thus the requirements of said national network with regards ticketing and through fares etc. are in force then the Mayor has no power the freeze their fares (other than possibly the ELL core). Also where does this leave Crossrail - because again, while the core is TfLs direct responsibility, on the GEML and GWML it is taking over national rail services - which, like the Overground routes still have obligations with regard to the national rail network. Could we see the situation where fares on the Crossrail core route get frozen, but those involving travel over the GWML & GEML increase along with other fares as per Treasury policy. |
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Post by stapler on Nov 18, 2016 14:15:17 GMT
The same press report says that fares on TFLRail will be frozen, so that means the GE main line to Shenfield, presumably.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 18, 2016 14:24:00 GMT
The same press report says that fares on TFLRail will be frozen, so that means the GE main line to Shenfield, presumably. The actual quote is "I'm delighted to be formally announcing our plans to freeze TfL fares across London's transport network." This could be taken to mean ONLY TfL (Liv Street to Shenfield) fares, or all fares controlled by TfL. And so the north/south divide gets bigger. |
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 18, 2016 14:45:39 GMT
The same press report says that fares on TFLRail will be frozen, so that means the GE main line to Shenfield, presumably. The actual quote is "I'm delighted to be formally announcing our plans to freeze TfL fares across London's transport network." This could be taken to mean ONLY TfL (Liv Street to Shenfield) fares, or all fares controlled by TfL. And so the north/south divide gets bigger. Zonal fares only apply as far as Harold Wood. The remaining stretch is Network Rail so "Zone 9" |
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Post by phil on Nov 18, 2016 14:47:41 GMT
The same press report says that fares on TFLRail will be frozen, so that means the GE main line to Shenfield, presumably. If so - could the Treasury demand payment from TfL for lost revenue that would otherwise have been accrued? Or alternatively could they reduce TfLs income to compensate? I feel its unlikely that the Treasury / DfT will be willing to forgo the monies that would have otherwise been generated to spend on improvements. With the Mayor and the Treasury being of different parties there is the very real chance of both sides taking a very different view of things - particularly if it causes political problems in the likes of South London or Manchester where fares will go up. Also with the operational grant being abolished and the need to generate some big savings to fund this how will this play out with the Unions? While the RMT will welcome a fare freeze for passengers, they are not going to accept a pay freeze for their members and equally any reduction in staffing is unacceptable to them too. In short, just as with Ken Livingstone's attempts at fare reform in the 80s, the current Mayor could well find his fare freeze manifesto commitment to become a serious burden in the years to come - particularly if the Treasury won't play ball and effectively say "Your decision - you fund it and don't come crying to us when you face serious budget problems by 2020". |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 18, 2016 15:03:49 GMT
The Mayor has confirmed TfL fares on buses and rail services it directly controls will be frozen for 4 years starting on 2 Jan 2017. Bus and Tram season prices are frozen as is the Hopper Fare. However the TOCs are increasing fares they control as well as Travelcard season / day Travelcard / daily caps. TOC single fares rise 10p as do through fares from TOC to / from TfL rail services. Day Travelcards / caps rise between 10p and 30p and weekly seasons between 40p and £1.10 depending on zone combination. It is quite clear from the documents below that fares on the tube and DLR are frozen. PAYG fares in Z1-6 are frozen on TfL Rail and London Overground. However fares in the outer areas such as Cheshunt and Brentwood / Shenfield are tied into the parallel Greater Anglia fares so there will be some increases there. This is because, as I have said before, TfL is bound by an agreement with the DfT not to create divergent fare structures and opportunities for "fare splitting". Furthermore fares on West Anglia and TfL as far as Liverpool St (NR) only will also increase by 10p. Normally TfL don't price specifically to termini but they retained this fare as well as point to point seasons. The PTP seasons to Liv St will rise by 1.8%. Again to avoid divergence from Greater Anglia prices. It has always been clear that Crossrail fares will, to some extent, have to track the fares of the parallel TOC so we can expect to see some fares charged by TfL continue to increase for as long as Govt require TOCs to put their fares up. Fares on NR routes which charge TfL rates (e.g. C2C and FGW) within the zones will have those fares frozen for 2017. We must wait and see if this remains the case for the full 4 years as there must come a point where the "step" between fares as far as Z6 and those beyond becomes too great on these routes too. Emirates Airline fares are also frozen. There are no product or validity changes this year. TfL will gain £41.2m from increased Travelcard prices and the freeze is expected to generate an extra £11m through increased ridership. www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/md2047_fares_jan17_signed_pdf.pdfwww.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/fares_advice_from_tfl_pdf.pdf |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 18, 2016 15:07:16 GMT
In short, just as with Ken Livingstone's attempts at fare reform in the 80s, the current Mayor could well find his fare freeze manifesto commitment to become a serious burden in the years to come - particularly if the Treasury won't play ball and effectively say "Your decision - you fund it and don't come crying to us when you face serious budget problems by 2020". HMT and DfT have already said this in the Settlement Letter to Boris Johnson last year. No reason to suppose there will be any change from that policy to 2020. See para 28 of content.tfl.gov.uk/spending-review-2015-funding-agreement-letter-march-2016.pdf |
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 18, 2016 20:14:33 GMT
humph!
So, Travelcard season / day Travelcard / daily caps are still rising.
The more I learn about this fares freeze the less attractive it sounds.
To boot, if nothing major happens in the global economy then by 2020 the income shortfall will be severe.
I am hoping that this shortfall is not recovered by downgrading the Freedom Pass offered to Londoners aged 60+. I say this because in 2019 I join that esteemed group of people and am now becoming concerned that it might be watered down - or even withdrawn for people below state retirement pension age.
Simon
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Post by bicbasher on Nov 18, 2016 20:54:03 GMT
Yup, and there is zero chance of the Treasury agreeing with his call to freeze National Rail fares. I presume that since the Overground routes (with the exception of the ELL core) are still technically an integral part of the national rail network (its just that the act of 'franchising' has been devolved with the proviso that TfL cannot take it back in house - i.e. nationalise Overground services) and thus the requirements of said national network with regards ticketing and through fares etc. are in force then the Mayor has no power the freeze their fares (other than possibly the ELL core). We'll probably still have standard TfL fares on the whole of the ELL, NLL, GOBLIN and WLL (the old Silverlink Metro franchise) which are on NR metals. If other franchises become part of the Overground, I'd expect the West Anglia TfL pricing model will be used which allows for cross-transfer between NR/TfL without the premium charge from London Terminals, but zonal pricing outside Zone 1. |
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Post by stapler on Nov 18, 2016 21:34:26 GMT
humph! So, Travelcard season / day Travelcard / daily caps are still rising. The more I learn about this fares freeze the less attractive it sounds. To boot, if nothing major happens in the global economy then by 2020 the income shortfall will be severe. I am hoping that this shortfall is not recovered by downgrading the Freedom Pass offered to Londoners aged 60+. I say this because in 2019 I join that esteemed group of people and am now becoming concerned that it might be watered down - or even withdrawn for people below state retirement pension age. Simon Think I'm right in saying some elements of the Freedom Pass are laid down in primary legislation, to provide for a default scheme. But others are not, like the 60+ oyster card and free travel before 0930 and on NR services. Given the sector of the population who habitually vote, I suspect the add-ons are safe enough.... |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 18, 2016 21:52:56 GMT
Think I'm right in saying some elements of the Freedom Pass are laid down in primary legislation, to provide for a default scheme. But others are not, like the 60+ oyster card and free travel before 0930 and on NR services. Given the sector of the population who habitually vote, I suspect the add-ons are safe enough.... The Freedom Pass probably is safe because it is funded by the Boroughs. The 60+ Oyster is not on such safe ground. As you say it is entirely discretionary and not enshrined in any legislation. The most worrying issue is that the cost of the 60+ pass is set to rise hugely year on year because more and more people are coming into its scope and the duration for it to be offered to women is also growing as the state pension age increases and the ENCTS entitlement date recedes. The cost is borne by TfL which already has to fund a load of other concessions and is also having to cope with the fares freeze. Something, somewhere will have to give - services, investment, concessions, the council tax precept, other charges, the fares freeze but you can't cope with inflation when your income base is shrinking and costs are going the other way. I know people don't like fares going up but the current direction of policy - Govt saying revenue must cover operating costs and the Mayor freezing fares - is ridiculous. If the Mayor is remotely interested in a second term he has saddled himself with some very difficult decisions come 2020. You can't freeze fares for another 4 years. The capital funding settlement expires around 2020. Therefore fares will have rise to some extent and I'd expect that extent to be considerable. I actually think the fares freeze will collapse in a couple of years anyway so it's all academic really. Circumstances will arrive that mean the Mayor will have unpalatable choices over services, fares or investment. Unless ridership collapses then cuts to (rail) services aren't tenable nor is stopping major investment programmes. That leaves fares and they're the easiest element to change. |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 18, 2016 22:02:12 GMT
Yup, and there is zero chance of the Treasury agreeing with his call to freeze National Rail fares. I presume that since the Overground routes (with the exception of the ELL core) are still technically an integral part of the national rail network (its just that the act of 'franchising' has been devolved with the proviso that TfL cannot take it back in house - i.e. nationalise Overground services) and thus the requirements of said national network with regards ticketing and through fares etc. are in force then the Mayor has no power the freeze their fares (other than possibly the ELL core). We'll probably still have standard TfL fares on the whole of the ELL, NLL, GOBLIN and WLL (the old Silverlink Metro franchise) which are on NR metals. If other franchises become part of the Overground, I'd expect the West Anglia TfL pricing model will be used which allows for cross-transfer between NR/TfL without the premium charge from London Terminals, but zonal pricing outside Zone 1. Just to be clear the fares freeze applies to London Overground fares on Euston - Watford High St, NLL, WLL, ELL, Romford - Upminster and GOBLIN. London Midland price Watford Junction so fares there will change. Fares on TfL Rail and West Anglia are frozen in Zones 1-6. Fares at Shenfield and Brentwood on TfL Rail will rise as will those on West Anglia beyond Zone 6 because Greater Anglia price stations outside the zones. Similarly the fares on West Anglia into Liverpool St Mainline only (a hangover from AGA and earlier) will rise by 10p but will remain below the fare into Zone 1. The point to point season ticket rates on West Anglia into Liv St mainline will rise by 1.9%. This is all made clear in the Mayoral Decision document. TfL cannot freeze fares beyond the zones because it is tied into agreements on Crossrail and more generally with the DfT that mean it cannot take pricing decisions that create large "steps" in fares as they cross the zone boundary nor create opportunities for split ticketing. |
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 18, 2016 22:04:36 GMT
Inflation is very much on my mind... its nothing to do with transport but recent shopping trips have seen some items going up as much as 10%. Even half of that for general inflation and TfL's finances will be in deep deep trouble.
Of course I really want a fares cut... especially with paper one day tickets. But I realise that there is about as much chance of the Northern heights electrification being completed as there is with my ticketing aspiration being met.
Simon
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Nov 18, 2016 22:59:07 GMT
Fare freezes or cuts are, without question, popular (although for some contrary reason, corresponding wage freezes or cuts to those that benefit from this improved fare situation aren't) so my jaundiced mind just pigeonhole's this in the "I want to be re-elected" file along with all the other self serving policies of the various mayors you in the metropolis are forced to tolerate over the years. If it turns out to be unsustainable I wont be in the least surprised but once again, it'll be left to the country (including me in North Lincolnshire) to subsidize a poor decision made in London on nothing other than political grounds (and this is true of left or right, blue, red, green or orange so no partisanship here). Everything goes up in price over the years having initially reached it's nadir, that's a fact - and has to to preserve the service. It can't go any other way without ruining whatever business it's attached to and this decision risks just that IMHO.
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Post by stapler on Nov 19, 2016 8:09:38 GMT
The way forward for the 60+ Oyster might be to charge an annual card fee (perhaps comparable with a railcard) and you could vary the start time of Freedom Passes, which would probably affect relatively few people (and give currency again to the old bus drivers' descriptor of OAPs as Twirlies (from "am I too early?".)
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Post by snoggle on Nov 19, 2016 21:24:34 GMT
The way forward for the 60+ Oyster might be to charge an annual card fee (perhaps comparable with a railcard) and you could vary the start time of Freedom Passes, which would probably affect relatively few people (and give currency again to the old bus drivers' descriptor of OAPs as Twirlies (from "am I too early?".) Unfortunately restricting the start time of the freedom pass will be politically very unpopular. The real problem is NHS reorganisation which is removing facilities from local hospitals and concentrating them in centres of excellence serviing large geographic areas. Older people tend to have higher use of NHS facilities and moving of facilities creates longer journeys for people meaning people with appointments between 0900 and 1000 would be out of scope of the pass if making such a long journey. A recurring demand from older people and their political representatives is the provision of direct buses from everywhere to every hospital to Greater London (I exaggerate only slightly). We are due to get a review from TfL about access to NHS facilities very soon and it will be very interesting to see what is actually proposed in response to the known issues with the transport network as currently configured. Any attempt to charge for the 60+ Pass will also run into resistance from those who now have the pass and those about to get it. Whether people genuinely have a right to feel "entitled" to the 60+ Pass is a matter for debate but some people will value it very highly and won't want to pay for it regardless of their personal circumstances. |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 19, 2016 21:32:07 GMT
Fare freezes or cuts are, without question, popular (although for some contrary reason, corresponding wage freezes or cuts to those that benefit from this improved fare situation aren't) so my jaundiced mind just pigeonhole's this in the "I want to be re-elected" file along with all the other self serving policies of the various mayors you in the metropolis are forced to tolerate over the years. If it turns out to be unsustainable I wont be in the least surprised but once again, it'll be left to the country (including me in North Lincolnshire) to subsidize a poor decision made in London on nothing other than political grounds (and this is true of left or right, blue, red, green or orange so no partisanship here). Everything goes up in price over the years having initially reached it's nadir, that's a fact - and has to to preserve the service. It can't go any other way without ruining whatever business it's attached to and this decision risks just that IMHO. Except that the rest of the UK will very soon stop subsidising the operation of the TfL network as Government removes revenue support and the Overground grant. It will keep supporting investment spend but then London is funding an increasing share of major schemes from levies and local taxation so even that call on the national purse is declining. Given London generates vast taxation revenues for the Treasury you can, of course, turn the argument on its head and say that as national spend on London falls it is London that is subsidising investment in roads, rail etc for the rest of the country.  It is also clear that fares related effects on TfL's budget will not be bailed out by the Treasury / DfT so London will be living with those consequences. Therefore the rest of the country won't be doing anything and I don't see the current government changing its mind given it made those statements to Boris Johnson as Mayor and it's not going to show any generosity to a Labour Mayor! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 15:47:15 GMT
Well at least the legal requirement for travelcards to rise every year by either RPI or whatever control measure TFL are given will cover the shortfall. Remember back in the 1990's , a weekly travelcard was set at the cost of nine single tickets, these days it is fifteen single journeys, plus the removal of one zone travelcards from 2007/2008 onwards, These stealth rises have covered every penny of TFL's shortfall over the last decade, therefore TFL has around one billion pounds in operating surplus every year now.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 20, 2016 17:15:50 GMT
Well at least the legal requirement for travelcards to rise every year by either RPI or whatever control measure TFL are given will cover the shortfall. Remember back in the 1990's , a weekly travelcard was set at the cost of nine single tickets, these days it is fifteen single journeys, plus the removal of one zone travelcards from 2007/2008 onwards, These stealth rises have covered every penny of TFL's shortfall over the last decade, therefore TFL has around one billion pounds in operating surplus every year now. Does it? Can you provide a source for that number? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 18:05:33 GMT
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Nov 20, 2016 20:33:28 GMT
Would it be possible to have a fares feeze on the central portion of Crossrail and have the extremities labelled under "special fares"?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 21:48:59 GMT
By the time Crossrail's outer sections enter FULL service in 2019, there will probably be a major revision to the fare structures anyway, otherwise you get an anomaly such as the journey from Abbeywood to Farringdon being available via either Crossrail or Thameslink direct train, so the fare structure has to account for that situation.
To be fair to TFL, their "Surplus" has helped to build the Crossrail Line, otherwise it may have never got built in the first place.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 20, 2016 22:46:26 GMT
Thanks but that article is 3 years old, was discredited at the time and is not an operating surplus. That was the Labour Party AMs doing their usual trick of looking at TfL's reserves and concluding that all the money there was just sitting there doing nothing and was not allocated to projects. You will note that since Val Shawcross, who usually led the cry of "huge surpluses", has been strangely silent on this matter since becoming Deputy Mayor for Transport. TfL only makes an operating surplus on the tube and on congestion charging. Everything else makes a loss. TfL is also paid money for things like Crossrail on a predetermined schedule which is now out of step with actual spend because the programme has been rescheduled and some works have run late. Therefore it is perfectly possible for funds to be sitting in TfL's coffers but due to leave them a few months down the road when bills have to paid. The new regime at City Hall has also seen TfL's reserves being deliberately run down - they've fallen by several hundred million this year - because they have delayed taking up loan finance until later in the year to save on interest charges. The new style financial reports which go to the Board show the drop in reserves quite clearly. |
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Nov 20, 2016 23:05:41 GMT
We will probably see more big screen advertisements like the one in Canary Wharf to also help TFL obtain some cash.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 20, 2016 23:53:09 GMT
there will probably be a major revision to the fare structures anyway, otherwise you get an anomaly such as the journey from Abbeywood to Farringdon being available via either Crossrail or Thameslink direct train, so the fare structure has to account for that situation. Why? There are already similar anomalies - for example Wimbledon to Blackfriars has two direct routes with different fares - so does Balham to London Bridge and Brixton to Victoria, and no doubt there are others |
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Post by peterc on Nov 21, 2016 9:14:34 GMT
There always has been a charge for the 60+ card.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 21, 2016 10:24:25 GMT
There always has been a charge for the 60+ card. To clarify, there is a £20 admin charge for issuing it. As far as I am aware, the card remains valid without a renewal fee until the holder qualifies for a Freedom Pass: currently 63y 5 m, but people now reaching qualifying age for the 60+ card will need to wait until they are 66. |
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 21, 2016 11:20:34 GMT
There always has been a charge for the 60+ card. To clarify, there is a £20 admin charge for issuing it. As far as I am aware, the card remains valid without a renewal fee until the holder qualifies for a Freedom Pass: currently 63y 5 m, but people now reaching qualifying age for the 60+ card will need to wait until they are 66. The cost used to be £10 but recently raised to £20. It carries an end date just after you reach the age for the Freedom pass issued by your local council. It is only valid for London residents. |
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