Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 7, 2016 19:36:10 GMT
When Broad Street was being run down, all its services were transferred to Liverpool Street. Why was it chosen to do it this way round rather than vice versa (divert Liverpool Street services to Broadgate)?
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Post by snoggle on Oct 7, 2016 19:49:17 GMT
When Broad Street was being run down, all its services were transferred to Liverpool Street. Why was it chosen to do it this way round rather than vice versa (divert Liverpool Street services to Broadgate)? Haven't you really answered your own question by referring to Broadgate? Follow the money. IIRC the only service left, after the GLC inspired re-jigging of the North London line service, was a Watford to Broad St / Liv St service over the Graham Rd curve. Building the latter curve was the means to provide an "equialvent" service to what was run in to Broad St so as to lessen the scale of any challenge to the Broad St closure proceedings. The other factor would be why build a new station at Broad St and massive rebuilding at the throat to divert GEML and WAML services to Broad St when you need to move 2 trains a day in the reverse direction and not incur any great expenditure and still rake in the millions for a huge redevelopment and be able to rejig Liv St off the back of it? That's if I've understood your question properly.  I'm sure Mr Hewett will be able to provide chapter and verse. |
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Post by crusty54 on Oct 7, 2016 20:04:53 GMT
The Broad Street site was freed up for the Broadgate development which was highly successful and helped regenerate the area north, west and east of it
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 7, 2016 20:45:16 GMT
I sometimes used the Broad St trains... when they ran! BR ran them down so that they could be euthanised (killed off). For instance, what use to commuters was a train that arrived at Liverpool St just after the end of the morning rush hour? Or left Liverpool st just before the start of the evening rush hour? Of course for BR they were ideal, as they carried so much 'fresh air' (and so few passengers) that BR was able to justify ending the service due to "lack of use". BR wanted passengers to change at Highbury & Islington, and go to Moorgate instead.  Broad St 313 Blue grey 2Visiting this image at Flickr and scrolling sideways to adjacent images will lead to more views taken at the same time. Simon |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 7, 2016 23:36:13 GMT
1. Even at its greatest extent Broad Street never had more than nine platforms, as against Liverpool Street's 18, so it could never have handled all of Liverpool Street's traffic. Moreover, none of its platforms were long enough to take the longest GEML trains either.
2. There are at least six tracks on the final approach to LSt - never more than four into B St - and only two between Stratford and Dalston Junction. Some heavy engineering would also have been needed to connect the Lea Valley lines to the Broad Street approaches.
3. Most of the Broad Street services were not diverted to Liverpool Street but North Woolwich - now Stratford. There was (until Crossrail) nowhere for the Liverpool Street services to be diverted to, except possibly a few to Fenchurch Street
4. It was much easier to build a new development over Liverpool Street (which is below street level) than Broad Street (which was above street level)
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Post by stapler on Oct 8, 2016 9:58:18 GMT
As an officer of the Chingford Line Commuters' Assn, I was at the first consultation meeting when all this was announced. I remember one of the BR officers saying that more passengers arrived on a single a.m. peak 9-car Chingford train (so say, just less than a thousand, they seated 848)than on all the trains that arrived at Broad St in the morning peak. I don't think it'd ever occur to anyone in BR to invert the closure proposals.
I also remember one Saturday in July 1969 taking my then new gf to Richmond and Kew via Broad St. I think we were the only passengers on the train. (I probably did not observe lineside features that day as much as usual...)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 14:43:24 GMT
IIRC when the service first switched to Liverpool Street there was still 4/5 Watford trains each way in each peak. The run down of the service came a year or two later.
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Post by stapler on Oct 9, 2016 12:08:44 GMT
Think that's right. I used to see them depart from Liverpool St, but I have to say, they were generally pretty empty. I doubt whether many people would even have thought of getting to Watford, Willesden Junction, H&I etc that way
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Post by superteacher on Oct 9, 2016 12:26:25 GMT
Think that's right. I used to see them depart from Liverpool St, but I have to say, they were generally pretty empty. I doubt whether many people would even have thought of getting to Watford, Willesden Junction, H&I etc that way The service was very poorly advertised, if at all! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 9, 2016 13:43:39 GMT
There was almost no possoble journey that could not be made more easily and quickly by Underground, or Northern City from Moorgate round the corner.
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Post by peterc on Oct 9, 2016 20:59:56 GMT
In the years before closure evening peak trains could be reasonably loaded often with all seats taken but not uncomfortably crowded. I suspect that normally having a seat all of the way was the main attraction of the service in its last days.
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Post by stapler on Oct 9, 2016 21:06:44 GMT
The Graham Road curve was built (AIRI) solely to facilitate the closure of Broad St, after much humming and hawing. It was planned by BRB HQ from about the mid-70s, I think (all tied up with issue of government office development permits for the site of Broad St). But in 1978 the GLC quietly started a 2 or 3tph service from Camden Rd to Stratford/N Woolwich without at first reopening Hackney NL . Of course, the interchange with BR(E) did not reopen till last year.
It strikes me a lot of cash could have been saved on the earthworks for Graham Rd if the interchange had been reopened then (and the exchange BO was then still standing). I once had this explained to me that the LMR did not talk much to the ER, and neither of them ever spoke to the GLC or the BRB HQ!
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Post by superteacher on Oct 25, 2016 20:34:08 GMT
The Graham Road curve was built (AIRI) solely to facilitate the closure of Broad St, after much humming and hawing. It was planned by BRB HQ from about the mid-70s, I think (all tied up with issue of government office development permits for the site of Broad St). But in 1978 the GLC quietly started a 2 or 3tph service from Camden Rd to Stratford/N Woolwich without at first reopening Hackney NL . Of course, the interchange with BR(E) did not reopen till last year. It strikes me a lot of cash could have been saved on the earthworks for Graham Rd if the interchange had been reopened then (and the exchange BO was then still standing). I once had this explained to me that the LMR did not talk much to the ER, and neither of them ever spoke to the GLC or the BRB HQ! Interesting. However, your post uses acronyms to the extreme, some of which are even obscure to me! Could you please edit your post to explain them, for the sake of our less knowledgeable members. Thanks.
EDIT: See post below - thanks to Norbitonflyer.
Im assuming the interchange you refer to is between Hackney Central and Hackney Downs?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 25, 2016 20:49:39 GMT
Could you please edit your post to explain them, My reading of it was thus: The Graham Road curve was built (as I recall it?) solely to facilitate the closure of Broad Street, ............. It was planned by British Railways Board HeadQuarters .............But in 1978 the Greater London Council quietly started a 2 or 3tph service from Camden Rd to Stratford/N Woolwich without at first reopening Hackney North London? . Of course, the interchange with British Rail (Eastern)) did not reopen till last year. It strikes me a lot of cash could have been saved .............if the interchange had been reopened then (and the exchange Booking Office? was then still standing). I once had this explained to me that the London Midland Region did not talk much to the Eastern Region, and neither of them ever spoke to the Greater London Council or the British Railways Board HeadQuarters! |
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Post by superteacher on Oct 25, 2016 20:54:53 GMT
Could you please edit your post to explain them, My reading of it was thus: The Graham Road curve was built (as I recall it?) solely to facilitate the closure of Broad Street, ............. It was planned by British Railways Board HeadQuarters .............But in 1978 the Greater London Council quietly started a 2 or 3tph service from Camden Rd to Stratford/N Woolwich without at first reopening Hackney North London? . Of course, the interchange with British Rail (Eastern)) did not reopen till last year. It strikes me a lot of cash could have been saved .............if the interchange had been reopened then (and the exchange Booking Office? was then still standing). I once had this explained to me that the London Midland Region did not talk much to the Eastern Region, and neither of them ever spoke to the Greater London Council or the British Railways Board HeadQuarters! Cheers NF, that's pretty much what I thought too. Good to know that we're thinking along the same lines. However, you are someone who I would consider to have a lot of knowledge about railways! |
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Post by stapler on Oct 25, 2016 20:59:11 GMT
Quite correct, Norbiton Flyer (I daren't use NF!!)
The Hackney/Hackney Downs interchange pre 1914 was much more versatile than it now is, with easy access to both sides at the North London station, and all three platforms at the Great Eastern one. By 1944, I think the exchange booking office was only on the south side of the North London. The three Hackney Downs platforms were connected by an open lattice footbridge at the London end, which survived till the 50s, without any users since the exchange facilities had closed 10 years before. It was a wonderful place to stand on when a Britannia with a Norwich train was approaching on the Fast Lines
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2016 21:06:04 GMT
Quite correct, Norbiton Flyer (I daren't use NF!!) Quite right, too. You'll be given ten lines, I mustn't use abbrs in my sentences. (Sorry, don't let me pull this thread off-topic). |
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Post by superteacher on Oct 25, 2016 21:08:50 GMT
Quite correct, Norbiton Flyer (I daren't use NF!!) Quite right, too. You'll be given ten lines, I mustn't use abbrs in my sentences.(Sorry, don't let me pull this thread off-topic). I'd write a witty response involving abbreviating your user name, but it's pretty pointless with a name of only three letters . . . Agreed, let's not go OT (oops sorry, I meant off topic!) |
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