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Post by snoggle on Aug 15, 2016 18:59:54 GMT
A new consultation has turned up from TfL. It is about TfL's desire to make the central section of Crossrail "specialised infrastructure". This is a device under the Railways Act which effectively prioritises the capacity of the infrastructure for high frequency metro services and to pretty much restrict the ability for anyone else to secure paths on the infrastructure. This ensures that TfL have the ability to operate the planned services and secure the revenues to pay back the required financing of the infrastructure. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/rail/crossrail-cosIn the pdf below there is a diagram of the proposed service frequency and service patterns (peak and off peak). It also provides a track diagram for the TfL owned section. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/rail/crossrail-cos/user_uploads/16.08.09_specialised_infrastructure_designation_consultation.pdf
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 15, 2016 20:14:08 GMT
Am I reading this correctly; if this is approved then freight could run along CrossRail if it doesn't get in the way of the regular services? Is there anything currently stopping Great Western or Anglia applying to run trains through the core (assuming they provide compatible stock and pay the access charge?).
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Post by snoggle on Aug 15, 2016 20:42:51 GMT
Am I reading this correctly; if this is approved then freight could run along CrossRail if it doesn't get in the way of the regular services? Is there anything currently stopping Great Western or Anglia applying to run trains through the core (assuming they provide compatible stock and pay the access charge?). The essence of the application is to allow TfL to prioritise access to the core for Crossrail services. It is not about preventing access *if* there is capacity available. The document says the construction of the route and design of the platforms prevents conventional freight but specialist vehicles with suitable dimensions and performance could run. Ditto for any TOC wanting to run through the tunnels - they'd need the same performance as the 345s and door spacings to allow trains to stop at the platforms and allow people on and off. TfL are quite explicit that they are not banning access if capacity is available but there are clearly constraints in using the core.
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Post by domh245 on Aug 15, 2016 20:55:06 GMT
So it's similar to a TOC putting a tender out for stock that is compatible with their existing fleet? It goes through the motions of allowing other bidders, but effectively limits it to just the one supplier?
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Post by snoggle on Aug 15, 2016 20:58:13 GMT
One of the interesting things in the consultation document is the first glimpse of Crossrail's peak and off peak service patterns.
Off Peak
4 tph Shenfield to Paddington (all stations) 2 tph Shenfield to Reading (semi fast Paddington to West Drayton) 2 tph Shenfield to Maidenhead (semi fast Paddington to West Drayton)
4 tph Abbey Wood to Heathrow T4 (all stations) 4 tph Abbey Wood to Paddington (all stations)
Peak
the above off peak service pattern but supplemented by
4 tph Shenfield to Paddington (all stations) 4 tph Gidea Park to Liverpool Stn (high level) all stations, peak direction only.
2 tph Abbey Wood to West Drayton (semi fast Paddington to West Drayton) 2 tph Abbey Wood to Paddington (all stations)
There is also reference to occasional Peak only services that operate between: - Shenfield to Heathrow - Shenfield to West Drayton - Abbey Wood to Reading - Abbey Wood to Maidenhead
The diagram also makes reference to "quiet periods" before 0700 and after 2100 when the off peak pattern may not apply.
The above service pattern throws up some oddities like no direct access to / from Heathrow from Stratford eastwards. Also no services to / from Acton Main Line to Stratford eastwards. There are also discontinuities in West London with no trains between West Ealing and Hanwell which looks really daft. Again Hanwell can't be reached without a change from Stratford eastwards. West Ealing also doesn't have direct trains to Heathrow - you have to change at Hayes. I know there are constraints in West London but it all looks a bit peculiar to me and not what has been advertised to people.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 15, 2016 21:46:36 GMT
Looking at the Crossrail site www.crossrail.co.uk/route/western-section/?fromStation=26&toStation=31I notice that the Hanwell to Wesrt ealing time is given as "4 minutes plus interchange at Ealing Broadway", which suggests that the diagram is right (and that the trains to T4 will not, in fact, be all stations. Curiously, the Hanwell- Ealing Bdy time is given as three minutes and Ealing Bdy to West Ealing as 2 minutes!
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 15, 2016 23:10:44 GMT
I'm struggling to see the rationale for this application. A railway has been built which only fits one type of train, so there's no competition for paths, until the trains are replaced in forty odd years.
Seems like a bit of a waste of money to me!
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Post by 100andthirty on Aug 16, 2016 7:31:58 GMT
Rincew1nd. I think you will find that "the law is an ass" as this is necessary to ensure that Crossrail can operate as its promoters intended. The law is part of the EU requirements to liberalise EU railways. The alternative would have been to have designated Crossrail as a Metro.
Also re your earlier point, any open access operator who wanted to operate "when there is capacity" would need trains with door spacing as per class 345 and the Crossrail signalling which no one else in the UK uses. I imagine that their contracts with DfT would prevent GWR and GA from seeking to run.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 16, 2016 8:18:44 GMT
I'm struggling to see the rationale for this application. A railway has been built which only fits one type of train, so there's no competition for paths, until the trains are replaced in forty odd years. Seems like a bit of a waste of money to me! As 100&30 says that's the law. As the main potential objection, from the ORR, has been cleared out of the way since before they put a spade in the ground then this should be a formality. It's obviously not impossible for someone to come along with a fleet of class 345s wishing to run through the tunnel but it is highly unlikely. All TfL are doing is ensuring the services they intend to run have priority thus ensuring, as far as possible, that Crossrail delivers the benefits and revenues that are expected. Can you imagine what would happen if the "Snoggle Urban Railway Company" [1] came along and grabbed the best paths and nicked the revenue thus landing the taxpayer with a problem? If you find this application a tad "frustrating" then please don't look at the other licence and change applications that ORR handles. Every train and freight company appears to be compelled to object to any and every application and to put a marker down for "compensation". It's a wonder anything ever happens on the NR network. [1] please note this is a fictional business. I haven't got a secret order for Class 345 trains.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Aug 16, 2016 9:30:24 GMT
So, after all the many years of hype, and the rebranding of it as a conventional underground line, it actually wont run like a metro line, but will instead adopt a NR-esque timetable, with stations skipped here and there?
..... nice one.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 16, 2016 9:32:35 GMT
I guess in my mind I have this as a private railway more like LU (or the various heritage lines) than standard National Rail. If SURC did launch, would they not be treated under the ORCATS rules and then TfL would still get a cut?
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Post by domh245 on Aug 16, 2016 9:34:32 GMT
It always has and always will be a NR style line, but it'll be more like the ELL than anything else in the core (all stops, all the time)
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Aug 16, 2016 10:36:00 GMT
But its not just the core that the scheme was built on. LT has over many decades slowly eliminated fast services and stopping variations, arguably going too far in some situations. Wheres the consistency if it does not apply this principal to the suburban lines it takes over? Further, will it not be confusing for anyone looking at Londons' metro map if it shows all TfL lines regardless if they are metro-like or not? Will we see a return of the 'high frequency' map? It'd be a brave manager willing to advertise that London's shiny new railway isn't that user friendly in parts.
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gantshill
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Post by gantshill on Aug 16, 2016 10:38:01 GMT
So we've got no chance of clubbing together and buying the IoW 1938 stock and gathering other old stock (including from Quainton Road and Acton) and running them as heritage specials through the middle of London? What a shame.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 16, 2016 11:53:44 GMT
So, after all the many years of hype, and the rebranding of it as a conventional underground line, it actually wont run like a metro line, but will instead adopt a NR-esque timetable, with stations skipped here and there? ..... nice one. Only west of Paddington where there is not the track capacity to allow anything else. Too much freight to accommodate, Heathrow Express services into Heathrow [1] plus residual semi fast FGW services running to / beyond Reading. There isn't the space to do anything else at an affordable cost. There were always going to be skip stop services on the west end of the route - you only had to look on the Crossrail website and look at the tph for each station to see this. The bit I had not appreciated was the loss of an all stations service for all stops west of Paddington as far as Hayes & Harlington which Heathrow Connect currently provides. Today passengers using West Ealing and Acton Main Line don't have direct services to places like West Drayton - they have to change with some longish waits. Skip stop peak services on the Shenfield line will go with all Crossrail services being all stations. Therefore it is a mixed story as to what services there will be and how "metro" they are. [1] yes I know they run on the fasts.
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Post by rail2210 on Aug 16, 2016 12:12:18 GMT
So, after all the many years of hype, and the rebranding of it as a conventional underground line, it actually wont run like a metro line, but will instead adopt a NR-esque timetable, with stations skipped here and there? ..... nice one. Only west of Paddington where there is not the track capacity to allow anything else. Too much freight to accommodate, Heathrow Express services into Heathrow [1] plus residual semi fast FGW services running to / beyond Reading. There isn't the space to do anything else at an affordable cost. There were always going to be skip stop services on the west end of the route - you only had to look on the Crossrail website and look at the tph for each station to see this. The bit I had not appreciated was the loss of an all stations service for all stops west of Paddington as far as Hayes & Harlington which Heathrow Connect currently provides. Today passengers using West Ealing and Acton Main Line don't have direct services to places like West Drayton - they have to change with some longish waits. Skip stop peak services on the Shenfield line will go with all Crossrail services being all stations. Therefore it is a mixed story as to what services there will be and how "metro" they are. [1] yes I know they run on the fasts. It does look like Acton Main Line does get a slight improvement, as Heathrow Connect does not stop there so if you were going anywhere past West Ealing, you would have to change anyway. Plus if theres disruption, the services that stop there are quite often the first to get cancelled into Paddington. Also is it known how the trains that terminate at Paddington from Central London will turn round? From a quick look at the diagram it looks like they will go up to Westbourne Park then turn round?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 16, 2016 12:56:24 GMT
Also is it known how the trains that terminate at Paddington from Central London will turn round? From a quick look at the diagram it looks like they will go up to Westbourne Park then turn round? Indeed they will - the sidings are marked "Westbourne Park Turnbacks" in the diagram. Is there are reason for the skip stop pattern? why cannot some trains be all stations, and others Ealing Broadway, Hayes and West Drayton only?
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Post by phil on Aug 16, 2016 15:12:47 GMT
Is there are reason for the skip stop pattern? why cannot some trains be all stations, and others Ealing Broadway, Hayes and West Drayton only? Yes - have a look at the previous post. The GWML off peak has to cope with a sizeable number of 'jumbo' stone trains from the Mendip quarries to Acton yard. Such trains have much the same characteristics of a supertanker - namely it takes a long time to get up to speed from a standing start - plus repeated stop starts puts more strain on the buffering gear etc. By having ALL Crossrail trains perform a skip stop pattern it is much easier to keep the freights rolling - which in turns means they actually clog up the line less. There are also a number of FGW semi-fast services that will still use the relief lines - again the use of a skip stop pattern helps keep them moving. What the GWML really needs is 6 tracking as far as airport junction, thus giving Crossrail its own dedicated tracks - or failing that long dynamic loops that allow freight and the semi-fasts to pass Crossrail trains while they call at all stations. However as neither of these interventions have implemented, the adoption of a skip stop timetable is essential.
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Post by coyote on Aug 16, 2016 15:14:55 GMT
Appendix 1, Plubstead Sidings? A new name for the area?
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Post by stapler on Aug 16, 2016 20:51:37 GMT
Anyone know if AGA will alter their pattern of stopping west of Shenfield? Will we perhaps lose the the enigmatic notice at the London end of the main line platforms and Shenfield which reads "Romford?"...?
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londoner
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Post by londoner on Aug 16, 2016 22:55:38 GMT
Is there are reason for the skip stop pattern? why cannot some trains be all stations, and others Ealing Broadway, Hayes and West Drayton only? Yes - have a look at the previous post. The GWML off peak has to cope with a sizeable number of 'jumbo' stone trains from the Mendip quarries to Acton yard. Such trains have much the same characteristics of a supertanker - namely it takes a long time to get up to speed from a standing start - plus repeated stop starts puts more strain on the buffering gear etc. By having ALL Crossrail trains perform a skip stop pattern it is much easier to keep the freights rolling - which in turns means they actually clog up the line less. There are also a number of FGW semi-fast services that will still use the relief lines - again the use of a skip stop pattern helps keep them moving. What the GWML really needs is 6 tracking as far as airport junction, thus giving Crossrail its own dedicated tracks - or failing that long dynamic loops that allow freight and the semi-fasts to pass Crossrail trains while they call at all stations. However as neither of these interventions have implemented, the adoption of a skip stop timetable is essential. Apologies for the novice question, why do FGW need to continue a semi-fast service if Crossrail arrives? If I remember correctly, these train operating companies make most of their money on long distance travellers, so would it benefit them to just provide long distance (non-stopping services) and have Crossrail as the all stopping service? Is that even possible? Is it possible in the long term future to continue tunneling all the way to "airport junction" and provide an all stopping service too?
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Aug 16, 2016 23:00:34 GMT
I've got a feeling the semi-fasts continue further out to Oxford, etc?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 17, 2016 7:25:27 GMT
I've got a feeling the semi-fasts continue further out to Oxford, etc? They do. It would be possible to extend more Crossrails Paddington terminators to Reading, but only by taking up paths currently used by Oxford and Newbury services. Making the good folk of Pangbourne and Hungerford etc change at Reading for London is probably a non-starter.
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Post by peterc on Aug 17, 2016 9:34:26 GMT
Romford is a significant destination for work and shopping however if there more demand for Stratford and Liverpool Street then removing the Romford stops (IIRC 2tph) will release some capacity.
With regard to skip stopping on the western side, I don't see this as a problem as long as all trains on each branch have the same stops so that passenges know that they must take a Heathrow train for a particular stop. It is easy enough then to show on maps and in-car diagrams by splitting the branches at Paddington.
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Post by stapler on Aug 17, 2016 10:18:14 GMT
It doesn't seem particularly smart not to plan for any through Shenfield-Heathrow trains. Surly this will just mean many more people having to change at the busy Crossrail stations in Central London?
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Post by snoggle on Aug 17, 2016 11:17:44 GMT
Romford is a significant destination for work and shopping however if there more demand for Stratford and Liverpool Street then removing the Romford stops (IIRC 2tph) will release some capacity. With regard to skip stopping on the western side, I don't see this as a problem as long as all trains on each branch have the same stops so that passenges know that they must take a Heathrow train for a particular stop. It is easy enough then to show on maps and in-car diagrams by splitting the branches at Paddington. I would be surprised if AGA dump Romford. As you say it is a destination in its own right and if AGA ceased to stop then they would lose a share of the fare revenue accruing from that destination via ORCATS. Unfortunately it is clear from the service pattern diagram that there will be certain trains on the peak shoulders and possibly early and after 2100 which do not run to the standard patterns or frequencies. Therefore at certain times people will need to be paying attention to where trains are going because you will get trains from Abbey Wood which run to West Drayton and beyond and trains from Shenfield that will go to Heathrow. It may not be worth making a big fuss about but some care will be needed but that's true of the Sub Surface lines on the tube too.
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Post by uzairjubilee on Aug 17, 2016 12:03:08 GMT
Sorry to go slightly off topic, but looking at the track diagram it doesn't show a scissors crossover at CNW. I thought there was going to be a massive one there?
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Post by jukes on Aug 17, 2016 18:05:10 GMT
The following is a quote from an annex to the East Anglia ITT "East Anglia services will no longer be required to call at Seven Kings, Romford, Gidea Park, Harold Wood, Brentwood and Edmonton Green from the commencement of TSR2" TSR2 is May 2019 as far as I recall.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 17, 2016 18:43:56 GMT
The following is a quote from an annex to the East Anglia ITT "East Anglia services will no longer be required to call at Seven Kings, Romford, Gidea Park, Harold Wood, Brentwood and Edmonton Green from the commencement of TSR2" TSR2 is May 2019 as far as I recall. Interesting. Some of those stops not being served makes sense but others don't. Not serving Edmonton Green has implications for peak capacity north of Seven Sisters, in particular. I wonder if Abellio have the option to serve some stops if they wish or whether DfT are actively preventing such stops. Obviously there are trade offs between stops and line capacity but taking out the semi fast peak AGA trains via Seven Sisters will go down like a lead balloon.
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Post by greatkingrat on Aug 17, 2016 19:09:55 GMT
It doesn't seem particularly smart not to plan for any through Shenfield-Heathrow trains. Surly this will just mean many more people having to change at the busy Crossrail stations in Central London? With only 4tph going to Heathrow at present, if you split them there would only be 2tph per branch which isn't enough. Ultimately I think Heathrow Express will be withdrawn due to lack of custom, and the Shenfield - Paddington trains will be extended to Heathrow, but that isn't going to happen immediately.
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