class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 11, 2016 8:30:00 GMT
A couple of weeks ago I made use of the Bakerloo line for a few journeys, and was absolutely disgusted by the state of the seats.
I actually felt ashamed that visitors to this country would experience the filthy looking seating and take that memory home with them as part of their impressions of England.
I quite sure I've ever seen stock in such an appalling condition on any other underground line, or on BR.
Is there no one in the management structure of the Bakerloo line with even a modicum of self respect, who could push for some new seat covers?
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Post by robv on Aug 11, 2016 8:48:56 GMT
I've not used the Bakerloo line for a almost a year now so hate to think how bad the seats are right now as they were horrid when I last used the line
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 11, 2016 9:18:27 GMT
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 11, 2016 9:34:40 GMT
No, otherwise I wouldn't have started this thread. I looked for anything relevant, but the only thing was the "2030" thread and I could not face wading through the whole thing looking for seat references. Seems that the matter is in hand - just a few years late! |
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Post by superteacher on Aug 11, 2016 23:30:32 GMT
The state of the 1972 stock is relative heaven compared with how dirty and run down the Undrground was in the late 70's to the mid 80's.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 11, 2016 23:37:48 GMT
No, otherwise I wouldn't have started this thread. I looked for anything relevant, but the only thing was the "2030" thread and I could not face wading through the whole thing looking for seat references. Seems that the matter is in hand - just a few years late! I used the search facility, and typed in "1972 seats" in the "contains all of the words" bar, and the post about the new seats came up straight away. You don't need to look through every post. It's just a matter of using the search facility properly. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 12, 2016 7:25:47 GMT
No, otherwise I wouldn't have started this thread. I looked for anything relevant, but the only thing was the "2030" thread and I could not face wading through the whole thing looking for seat references. Seems that the matter is in hand - just a few years late! I used the search facility, and typed in "1972 seats" in the "contains all of the words" bar, and the post about the new seats came up straight away. You don't need to look through every post. It's just a matter of using the search facility properly. Well, I tried 'dirty Seats', 'shiny seats', 'brown seats', and 'new seats'. Often, with searching, it's a matter of luck whether you happen to pick the particular combination that gets you the result you're after. Quite honestly, I would never even have considered using "1972", because: a) It was in the Bakerloo forum so I'd expect to see 1972 in one hell of a lot of threads. b) I was interested in the state of the seats, not when they, or the trains containing them, were made. When you think about the number of possible terms, including: Dirty, filthy, mucky, brown, shiny, old, tired, ancient, uncleaned; seats, seating, covers, moquette, fabric. You realise that the number of combinations is enormous. You just got lucky! Anyway, it's not as if new threads are costing anyone money. |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 12, 2016 10:22:14 GMT
A couple of weeks ago I made use of the Bakerloo line for a few journeys, and was absolutely disgusted by the state of the seats. I actually felt ashamed that visitors to this country would experience the filthy looking seating and take that memory home with them as part of their impressions of England. I quite sure I've ever seen stock in such an appalling condition on any other underground line, or on BR. Is there no one in the management structure of the Bakerloo line with even a modicum of self respect, who could push for some new seat covers? I think LU has actually been shamed into doing something about this. There has been much comment on social media but politicians on the London Assembly regularly asked questions about it. Your basic observation still stands though - what went wrong to allow such deterioration. Given that mystery shopping surveys still carry on and fleet managers should have relevant targets this should mean someone isn't achieving their targets. It's obviously not the most critical issue for Bakerloo Fleet but it is one of the most visible aspects of "decline". Passengers won't know the bodywork and floors are falling apart. |
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Post by trt on Aug 12, 2016 11:40:56 GMT
I used the search facility, and typed in "1972 seats" in the "contains all of the words" bar, and the post about the new seats came up straight away. You don't need to look through every post. It's just a matter of using the search facility properly. Well, I tried 'dirty Seats', 'shiny seats', 'brown seats', and 'new seats'. Often, with searching, it's a matter of luck whether you happen to pick the particular combination that gets you the result you're after. Quite honestly, I would never even have considered using "1972", because: a) It was in the Bakerloo forum so I'd expect to see 1972 in one hell of a lot of threads. b) I was interested in the state of the seats, not when they, or the trains containing them, were made. When you think about the number of possible terms, including: Dirty, filthy, mucky, brown, shiny, old, tired, ancient, uncleaned; seats, seating, covers, moquette, fabric. You realise that the number of combinations is enormous. You just got lucky! Anyway, it's not as if new threads are costing anyone money. You've given me an idea for a thesaurosearch function...  |
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Post by robv on Aug 12, 2016 12:40:32 GMT
A couple of weeks ago I made use of the Bakerloo line for a few journeys, and was absolutely disgusted by the state of the seats. I actually felt ashamed that visitors to this country would experience the filthy looking seating and take that memory home with them as part of their impressions of England. I quite sure I've ever seen stock in such an appalling condition on any other underground line, or on BR. Is there no one in the management structure of the Bakerloo line with even a modicum of self respect, who could push for some new seat covers? I think LU has actually been shamed into doing something about this. There has been much comment on social media but politicians on the London Assembly regularly asked questions about it. Your basic observation still stands though - what went wrong to allow such deterioration. Given that mystery shopping surveys still carry on and fleet managers should have relevant targets this should mean someone isn't achieving their targets. It's obviously not the most critical issue for Bakerloo Fleet but it is one of the most visible aspects of "decline". Passengers won't know the bodywork and floors are falling apart. Unlike the obvious decline of the Central line car floors ( trip hazards galore) |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 12, 2016 13:46:01 GMT
Well, I tried 'dirty Seats', 'shiny seats', 'brown seats', and 'new seats'. Often, with searching, it's a matter of luck whether you happen to pick the particular combination that gets you the result you're after. Quite honestly, I would never even have considered using "1972", because: a) It was in the Bakerloo forum so I'd expect to see 1972 in one hell of a lot of threads. b) I was interested in the state of the seats, not when they, or the trains containing them, were made. When you think about the number of possible terms, including: Dirty, filthy, mucky, brown, shiny, old, tired, ancient, uncleaned; seats, seating, covers, moquette, fabric. You realise that the number of combinations is enormous. You just got lucky! Anyway, it's not as if new threads are costing anyone money. You've given me an idea for a thesaurosearch function... Getting a bit off topic, here, but Google already does that to a considerable extent. The disparity between the sophistication of Google's search engine and everyone else's (even if the do use a Google supplied engine) is very noticeable. In fact, I would have been much better off using Google to search this forum. |
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Post by Jerome H on Aug 12, 2016 13:58:47 GMT
You've given me an idea for a thesaurosearch function... Getting a bit off topic, here, but Google already does that to a considerable extent. The disparity between the sophistication of Google's search engine and everyone else's (even if the do use a Google supplied engine) is very noticeable. In fact, I would have been much better off using Google to search this forum. I've definitely googled "district Dave [keywords]" before. The condition on LU seats versus anywhere else intrigues me. Half on London seems to despise them, and half seem to feel fortunate it's not plastic (source unverified). I doubt anyone has complained about the degradation of New York subway seats, since plastic won't really give way or tear. TfL is proud of their moquette, but it seems like they aren't a high priority for maintaining. What's the lifespan on a moquette seat, including padding and the other inside bits? |
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Post by patrickb on Aug 12, 2016 18:42:45 GMT
I recall watching a particular archive video a few items which documented the London Underground in the post-war days. Among all the clips, I distinctly recall watching a cleaner vacuuming the seats, and I always thought 'now there's something you don't see anymore'. If seats were cleaned more regularly, they would last longer without turning grim and dusty. Jerome H I wouldn't be an expert on padding, but most LU Stock undergo 3 moquette refreshes in their lifetime. The D78's have only had two but this could be as a result of it's slightly premature withdrawal. 92's have had one and 95'/96's have all had two so far, with the latest for all three being the Standard Blue Barman Moquette. If I was to say that the average lifespan for LU Stock was 40 years, the lifespan for moquette seating would therefore be 10... |
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Post by Tomcakes on Aug 12, 2016 22:03:56 GMT
I recall watching a particular archive video a few items which documented the London Underground in the post-war days. Among all the clips, I distinctly recall watching a cleaner vacuuming the seats, and I always thought 'now there's something you don't see anymore'. If seats were cleaned more regularly, they would last longer without turning grim and dusty. Nowadays you can buy hoovers which can be mounted in a backpack style, running off batteries. For all I know, they may well already be used. Any deeper cleaning, e.g. using steam and cleaning chemicals / detergents, has the disadvantage of the seat needing to dry a) thoroughly (so as to not become a breeding ground for mould, etc) and b) in time for the train to be used in service again. I doubt that cancellations due to wet seats would be well received! |
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Post by superteacher on Aug 12, 2016 23:36:48 GMT
I recall watching a particular archive video a few items which documented the London Underground in the post-war days. Among all the clips, I distinctly recall watching a cleaner vacuuming the seats, and I always thought 'now there's something you don't see anymore'. If seats were cleaned more regularly, they would last longer without turning grim and dusty. Jerome H I wouldn't be an expert on padding, but most LU Stock undergo 3 moquette refreshes in their lifetime. The D78's have only had two but this could be as a result of it's slightly premature withdrawal. 92's have had one and 95'/96's have all had two so far, with the latest for all three being the Standard Blue Barman Moquette. If I was to say that the average lifespan for LU Stock was 40 years, the lifespan for moquette seating would therefore be 10... D stock have had 3 moquettes: 2 before refurbishment and one after. |
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Post by patrickb on Aug 13, 2016 1:15:23 GMT
I recall watching a particular archive video a few items which documented the London Underground in the post-war days. Among all the clips, I distinctly recall watching a cleaner vacuuming the seats, and I always thought 'now there's something you don't see anymore'. If seats were cleaned more regularly, they would last longer without turning grim and dusty. Jerome H I wouldn't be an expert on padding, but most LU Stock undergo 3 moquette refreshes in their lifetime. The D78's have only had two but this could be as a result of it's slightly premature withdrawal. 92's have had one and 95'/96's have all had two so far, with the latest for all three being the Standard Blue Barman Moquette. If I was to say that the average lifespan for LU Stock was 40 years, the lifespan for moquette seating would therefore be 10... D stock have had 3 moquettes: 2 before refurbishment and one after. When I say two refreshes, I mean original moquette which I know is the same one the 83's received + 2 replacement (orange/red/green) and (post refurbishment green). |
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Post by carltona on Aug 16, 2016 19:42:15 GMT
I agree that the seats should never have been allowed to get "down to the canvas" which in the case of Bakerloo cushions is a fine wire mesh which gives the shiny and dirty look experienced by the OP. However, the newly refurbished brown barman ones now appearing look really good especially when they are combined with the new brown floor covering. I still prefer the old 59 or 38 stock interiors with armrests and dangly knobs however.
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Post by keppoch69 on Aug 16, 2016 19:48:42 GMT
I am 46 year old. Is it a generational thing perhaps, if we like the "dangly knobs" or not?
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 16, 2016 19:57:19 GMT
I am 46 year old. Is it a generational thing perhaps, if we like the "dangly knobs" or not? I'm 64 & I like 'em dangly, too. They bring back some good memories. But dirty seats is carrying the historical ambience a little too far!! |
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Post by carltona on Aug 16, 2016 19:58:18 GMT
I am 46 year old. Is it a generational thing perhaps, if we like the "dangly knobs" or not? They were certainly better than the horrid yellow straps to be found on the s stocks, though there was a bit of an art to holding onto the knobs on a packed train when it managed to pick up a bit of speed. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 17, 2016 7:40:49 GMT
I remember looking up at the 'knobby' implementation as a child and assuming that the coiled wire was a spring.
Imagine my disappointment when I was finally tall enough to reach them to discover that they were not springs at all, but merely protective 'collars'.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 17, 2016 11:08:25 GMT
I remember thinking exactly the same about the ones on the Tyne and Wear Metro!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 17:53:21 GMT
Hi,
I haven't posted on here for a couple of years. I'm one of the fleet support managers, and have been involved in getting the 72TS interiors improved. There was no intention to allow the seats to deteriorate as far as they got. Unfortunately it's taken a while to turn the funding tap back on after the decision to extend the life of the fleet (see other threads for the structural aspects). As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, seat condition wasn't the top priority given the condition of other areas of the vehicles. But it is now being sorted, as fast as the supplier can overhaul them. Steps have also been taken so that when the fleet next becomes due for a seat renewal, which is likely at least once more before withdrawal, the decision will need to be to explain why funding should be withheld rather than be provided. Hopefully this will prevent the seats reaching their current state again. On the point of cleaning, an in situ clean using a foaming shampoo is done at a rate of one train a week. Unfortunately the liner is black, so when the wool of the moquette is worn they look bad regardless of whether the colour is due to dirt or not. |
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Post by antharro on Aug 17, 2016 22:12:49 GMT
Hello tsquare, welcome to the forum.  Can I ask - when they are next due for a seat renewal, are there any plans to replace them with the hard seats that have made their way to the Jubilee and Northern fleets? The bouncy seats are part of the character of these trains and it would be a shame to lose them. |
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Post by A60stock on Aug 17, 2016 23:52:55 GMT
Hi tsquare
May I also ask what other interior improvements will be taking place over the next few years? I am particularly interested in find out if any interior dot matrix indicators will be installed or any other DDA mandatory requirement improvements before 2020?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 0:26:40 GMT
This hot weather has made me realise that many of the air vents are jammed and can't be opened or closed. Wonder if there's any plan to sort these out? Some very stuffy cars out there (and presumably cold and draughty in the winter).
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Post by trt on Aug 18, 2016 10:41:17 GMT
The way those Bakerloo Line seats jump people up when someone sits next to them provides hours (well, 45 minutes) of entertainment if I have to catch the brown one back to Harrow.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 20:00:04 GMT
With the renewal frequency declared up front it'll be much easier to justify the design work to improve the seat bases for next time. The existing ones may be comfy, but they're very heavy to lift out to access equipment underneath. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 18, 2016 20:35:49 GMT
With the renewal frequency declared up front it'll be much easier to justify the design work to improve the seat bases for next time. The existing ones may be comfy, but they're very heavy to lift out to access equipment underneath. And Heaven forfend that daily passenger comfort should cause anyone to have to lift a little weight, once in a while. |
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