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Post by spsmiler on Aug 9, 2016 20:06:25 GMT
On Wednesday 10th August there will be a "Meet the Manager" event between 7am and 9am at Grange Hill, Chigwell and Roding Valley stations. This tweet has the full details:
With these stations having just experienced significantly reduced am peak services the local people are not at all happy. So its likely that the Manager and his staff are going to meet some very angry passengers. If you follow the link and look at the replies you'll see what I mean. One of those replies was from me (link below) and what I was suggesting is that since the 1962 tube stock RAT trains are already equipped to interact with the line's signalling system, even if only partially, then maybe one way to help solve the stock shortage would be to run one of them between Hainault and Woodford, especially in the am rush hour. Possibly this would have to be a shorter length 4 car train, as the cars which have been adapted to carry the stuff that is spread on the tracks during the RAT duties will not be suitable for converting back to passenger use. But the rest of the train...
I've heard it said that there are even some 1962 tube stock cars hidden somewhere at the back of Hainault depot. Since the 1992 tube stock shortage is going to last for a while (whilst they undergo refurbishment) so bringing back older rolling stock for light duties may help keep passengers happy. This sort of thing has happened before, eg: with 1938 tube stock! Simon (also thinking of D stock, especially as the sections of line involved were built for similar sized trains, albeit steam hauled!) |
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Post by superteacher on Aug 9, 2016 20:13:50 GMT
The 1962 stock idea will never happen. When they used the 38's on the Northern from 1986 - 1988, they had only just been retired from the Bakerloo. The 1962 stock haven't run in passenger service for 21 years on the Central, and 17 years on the Northern. The train would also need a guard, and drivers would need to be trained to drive the trains. I also assume that whatever is left of the passenger cars would be in pretty poor condition.
There is also the issue of the embarrassing publicity. Imagine the headlines: "TFL forced to use 54 year old train"!
Playing devil's advocate here, these morning trains were a bonus, because there is only one in the evening. Perhaps the passengers need to know that these trains were never provided to serve them, but just happened to pass those stations as the train left the depot!
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 9, 2016 20:18:29 GMT
Hmm, linking to tweets is not as easy as I thought. The links above only show the main message, hopefully these will show everything (I had to edit the BBCode to get them to work how I wanted), although you will need to right click and open them in new windows. There are two because the message was tweeted twice and they have different replies! linklinkSimon |
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 9, 2016 20:25:52 GMT
The 1962 stock idea will never happen. When they used the 38's on the Northern from 1986 - 1988, they had only just been retired from the Bakerloo. The 1962 stock haven't run in passenger service for 21 years on the Central, and 17 years on the Northern. The train would also need a guard, and drivers would need to be trained to drive the trains. I also assume that whatever is left of the passenger cars would be in pretty poor condition. There is also the issue of the embarrassing publicity. Imagine the headlines: "TFL forced to use 54 year old train"! Playing devil's advocate here, these morning trains were a bonus, because there is only one in the evening. Perhaps the passengers need to know that these trains were never provided to serve them, but just happened to pass those stations as the train left the depot! Thanks, and alas. I accept that LU are trying to juggle too few trains with too many passengers. But I hate seeing passengers suffer because of this and was hoping that an "out of the box" solution could be found. To be quite honest, I question whether all the works that are intended for the 1992 tune stock are really necessary. Especially those which involve removing seats. Simon |
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Post by superteacher on Aug 9, 2016 20:30:34 GMT
The 1962 stock idea will never happen. When they used the 38's on the Northern from 1986 - 1988, they had only just been retired from the Bakerloo. The 1962 stock haven't run in passenger service for 21 years on the Central, and 17 years on the Northern. The train would also need a guard, and drivers would need to be trained to drive the trains. I also assume that whatever is left of the passenger cars would be in pretty poor condition. There is also the issue of the embarrassing publicity. Imagine the headlines: "TFL forced to use 54 year old train"! Playing devil's advocate here, these morning trains were a bonus, because there is only one in the evening. Perhaps the passengers need to know that these trains were never provided to serve them, but just happened to pass those stations as the train left the depot! Thanks, and alas. I accept that LU are trying to juggle too few trains with too many passengers. But I hate seeing passengers suffer because of this and was hoping that an "out of the box" solution could be found. Simon Demand has definitely increased on the northern part of the loop in recent years, but unfortunately so has that on the Epping line, particularly from Epping itself. It's not even an issue with train availability, but paths into Central London. If you send a train from the northern part of the loop, it has to take the place of a train from the Epping line or from Newbury Park. |
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Post by patrickb on Aug 10, 2016 0:31:19 GMT
Very interesting comments here.
I suppose that there is no short term solution to the shortage of 92's whilst they undergo refurbishment and will likely continue to in future so that these units meet RVAR.
However, whilst the lack of growth along this section can be attributed with restrictions imposed by the Green Belt, these three stations are in Zone 4 and their isolation and lack of influence is a result of poor service.
It's nearly a decade since these stations were reallocated from Zone 5 to Zone 4, how can it be that these areas are still poorly served by any transport, weather it be bus or tube.
Rumors did circulate of plans to reinstate the Shuttle and have two 4 car 1992TS units. Whilst this is all speculation, I for one would have no objection to this, provided that the frequency was no less than 4tph.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 10, 2016 6:24:16 GMT
these three stations are in Zone 4 and their isolation and lack of influence is a result of poor service. It's nearly a decade since these stations were reallocated from Zone 5 to Zone 4, how can it be that these areas are still poorly served by any transport, weather (sic) it be bus or tube. These three stations are not only in the Green Belt, but in Essex, and thus the funding of any improvements is up to Essex County Council. The level of service is not dictated by the zone. On the contrary, the anomalous zoning was an attempt to drum up custom in the face of the relatively poor service. See Bromley North (Z4) and South (Z5) for another example. |
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Post by will on Aug 10, 2016 9:02:46 GMT
Very interesting comments here. I suppose that there is no short term solution to the shortage of 92's whilst they undergo refurbishment and will likely continue to in future so that these units meet RVAR. However, whilst the lack of growth along this section can be attributed with restrictions imposed by the Green Belt, these three stations are in Zone 4 and their isolation and lack of influence is a result of poor service. It's nearly a decade since these stations were reallocated from Zone 5 to Zone 4, how can it be that these areas are still poorly served by any transport, weather it be bus or tube. Rumors did circulate of plans to reinstate the Shuttle and have two 4 car 1992TS units. Whilst this is all speculation, I for one would have no objection to this, provided that the frequency was no less than 4tph. It would be an excellent idea to split a 92 in half as many have middle driving cabs and have at least one shuttle (4 cars) Woodford - Hainault all day with the other shuttle operating in the peaks. That was no on would really have to plan their lives around the woeful 3 TPH service and could catch a connection at Woodford with ease that would be really quick and convenient. |
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Post by jamesb on Aug 16, 2016 18:25:05 GMT
I live in Roding Valley.
Shuttle service - my understanding is that passengers like a through train to central London in the morning peak so that they can get a seat, rather then changing at Woodford and having to stand. A shuttle service wouldn't solve this.
The trains are designed as 4 x 2 car units, I haven't seen that many with a middle driving cab. When there is, it's normally just one, rather then two back to back. So I'm not sure splitting the trains would be that easy, given some are out of service at any given time.
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Post by suncloud on Aug 16, 2016 22:36:32 GMT
With the 92 units, slightly more than half of the units have driving cabs, gives flexibility as you must have a 'driving' unit at each end but the middle units could be driving or non-driving units. I don't think there's any reason why four driving units could not be operated as a train. However having cabs in the middle of the train does reduce capacity and could have an effect on stopping time as there is one less door in that car...
I don't see any reason not to run a four car shuttle train, but coupling/uncoupling or running as four cars through busier sections would probably cause more problems than it's worth...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2016 22:54:51 GMT
Am I right in thinking that there is a PAC loop at the front and at the back of the train on the Central line, or was that just for the Jubilee line's PEDs?
(I'm asking because if there's only one at the front, then there's no issue, but if there's one at the back as well, then obviously that would be a barrier to running shorter trains).
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Post by patrickb on Aug 17, 2016 14:14:25 GMT
jamesb - Weather or not there would be a through service is irrelevant. With new WTT69, the number of morning peak through services has decreased and all off-peak services terminate at WFD. However, a morning peak service with additional 8-car trains can still operate through WFD from GRH to EBY. suncloud is correct. To expand on his point, there are four more A-B sets with a Drivers Cab then B-C sets that come without. So theoretically, four 4-car sets can be formed. I doubt that shorter formations would be allowed to stray beyond HAI - WFD due to various restriction imposed by ATO and PAC's. tut - If trains were operated in Coded Manual, would this remove the restrictions... I'm not sure if the Central Line adopts the same PAC system as the Jubilee Line but will definitely have some sort of provision for ATO.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 14:37:30 GMT
Only the PAC at the front is used as far as I know, everything in the rear cab has a nap when the other cab is leading.
There may well be more A/B units and therefore more cabs but that doesn't mean there are any more serviceable cabs, there would me a lot of work needed to bring the "spare" cabs back up to spec. There's at least one that has pretty much just a TBC handle in it and not a whole lot else!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 17, 2016 16:31:20 GMT
suncloud is correct. To expand on his point, there are four more A-B sets with a Drivers Cab then B-C sets that come without. So theoretically, four 4-car sets can be formed. You need two AB sets to form a 4-car train, so if there are only four excess AB sets, surely only two four-car sets could be formed? (We are assuming 100% utilisation of bot types of set, and for completeness should note that the BC set total includes some BD (deicing) 4-car sets are, of course, operated all the time on the Drain |
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Post by patrickb on Aug 17, 2016 19:53:20 GMT
suncloud is correct. To expand on his point, there are four more A-B sets with a Drivers Cab then B-C sets that come without. So theoretically, four 4-car sets can be formed. You need two AB sets to form a 4-car train, so if there are only four excess AB sets, surely only two four-car sets could be formed? (We are assuming 100% utilisation of bot types of set, and for completeness should note that the BC set total includes some BD (deicing) 4-car sets are, of course, operated all the time on the Drain If you swap four B-C Sets with all four A-B Sets, all 8-car trains of the Central Line fleet would have no intermediate cabs except two trains which would be left with 2 intermediate cabs. With set formation A-B-B-A-A-B-B-A. So that's 4 ABBA's in total (Not to be confused with the Swedish Pop Group) but the maths speaks for itself. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 17, 2016 20:19:45 GMT
If you swap four B-C Sets with all four A-B Sets,. ..... you would end up with four BC units out of use (or an 8-car train with no cabs). You can, of course, make as many ABBAABBA trains as you like by withdrawing more of the BC units. If each BC unit is paired with an AB unit to make half an 8 car train, there are four, not eight, AB units left over. That's enough to make one 8-car train or two 4-cars |
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Post by patrickb on Aug 17, 2016 21:25:15 GMT
If you swap four B-C Sets with all four A-B Sets,. ..... you would end up with four BC units out of use (or an 8-car train with no cabs). You can, of course, make as many ABBAABBA trains as you like by withdrawing more of the BC units. If each BC unit is paired with an AB unit to make half an 8 car train, there are four, not eight, AB units left over. That's enough to make one 8-car train or two 4-cars This is clearly going to be very hard to explain, so I'll explain it this way: Here are the four extra A-B sets that you will find on various 92TS Central Line Fleet formations which have been highlighted: A-B
The four B-C sets that are going to be swapped with A-B sets will be highlighted as such: B-CA-B- B-C- C-B-B-A A-B- B-C- C-B-B-A A-B- A-B-C-B-B-A A-B-B-C- A-B-B-A A-B- B-A-C-B-B-A A-B-B-C- B-A-B-A Others trains with no intermediate cabs are generally formed as A-B-B-C-C-B-B-A excluding de-icing units. The final result should be as follows: A-B- B-A- A-B-B-A = 2X A-B-B-A A-B- B-A- A-B-B-A = 2X A-B-B-A A-B- C-B-C-B-B-A A-B-B-C- C-B-B-A A-B- B-C-C-B-B-A A-B-B-C- B-C-B-A |
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Post by hobbayne on Aug 17, 2016 22:02:12 GMT
You have to be careful where you put the B cars. They have no collecter shoes and could result in gapping if there are too many B cars coupled.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 18, 2016 6:25:33 GMT
You have to be careful where you put the B cars. They have no collecter shoes and could result in gapping if there are too many B cars coupled. Each B car is permanently coupled to an A or C car, so there can never be more than two together. In any case, gapping usually occurs because all the collector shoes are too close together, (e.g on a loco or a 2car emu) and fit in a gap in the juice rail such as on complicated point work or a label crossing. On a 1992 stock train (of any length) the end cars are both A cars which have shoes. @patrick - thanks for explaining that. |
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Post by superteacher on Aug 20, 2016 13:52:22 GMT
Dragging this back on topic - did anyone go to the Meet the Manager event as mentioned in the OP?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 16:20:55 GMT
Another issue - the 1962 trains can't work on the Central line anymore, as they are not compatible with the Current ATO Signalling equipment in use on the line!
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Post by superteacher on Aug 20, 2016 16:39:26 GMT
Another issue - the 1962 trains can't work on the Central line anymore, as they are not compatible with the Current ATO Signalling equipment in use on the line! The 1962 stock trains used for RAT purposes have ATP equipment fitted, so they can (and do) run. |
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 20, 2016 20:41:38 GMT
Another issue - the 1962 trains can't work on the Central line anymore, as they are not compatible with the Current ATO Signalling equipment in use on the line! The 1962 stock trains used for RAT purposes have ATP equipment fitted, so they can (and do) run. ...which explains why I suggested removing the cars with the specialist RAT equipment and running a shorter train of these on the shuttle service, even if only as rush hour extras - although if also run off-peak you likely find that some passengers would have made the trains the reason for the journey! Simon |
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Post by Chris M on Aug 21, 2016 1:44:15 GMT
I got a good look at the interior of the east end RAT when it was reversing in the platform at Leytonstone last season. The entire interior, at least, would require extensive work before it would be fit to carry passengers again - it looks more like a workshop than a passenger train.
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