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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2007 16:11:18 GMT
Is it just me, or wouldn't it be more cost-effective to build a station at Oxford Circus instead of both Bond Street and Tottenham Court Road?
Almost certainly, one station (complex as OC is) would be cheaper than two, and an western OC platform exit would serve the Bond Street area anyway (as the eastern BS one is planned to serve the Oxford Circus area).
Also, it seems to me that OC provides more interchange possibilities to the rest of the tube than TCR and BS combined. In particular, OC is well placed for passengers to Kings Cross and Victoria, stations that do not have a direct link from either TCR or BS.
Finally, cutting out a stop would improve the speed of the line for cross-centre passengers.
I realise that there are capacity issues at OC, but perhaps some of the money saved could be spent expanding facilities there?
Also, the Victoria line is extremely busy already, would such an arrangement tip it over the edge?
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Post by c5 on Dec 26, 2007 16:17:47 GMT
That does sound like a good idea. I would have said an Oxford Circus/TCR station would be better as the area around Centre Point does require a bit of tarting up. What are the distances involved though?
This is what they are doing at Liverpool St, which will also have an entrance at Moorgate station.
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Post by ianvisits on Dec 26, 2007 16:25:35 GMT
I presume that the TCR station will be a cut/cover box design - which is a heck of a lot cheaper to build than a tunneled station constructed entirely underground.
One medium sized subteranean built station + one cut/cover is probably not much different in cost terms from building a single, much larger station entirely underground at Oxford Circus.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2007 16:34:13 GMT
I presume that the TCR station will be a cut/cover box design - which is a heck of a lot cheaper to build than a tunneled station constructed entirely underground. I seem to recall looking at the plans, and that TCR would be situated in a densly built area (and not following the line of any particular street). I don't think it's planned for the exact location of the gyratory either, so not sure where a C&C box could be excavated (and they are all big station boxes too!). |
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Post by cetacean on Dec 26, 2007 17:28:53 GMT
Is it just Almost certainly, one station (complex as OC is) would be cheaper than two, and an western OC platform exit would serve the Bond Street area anyway (as the eastern BS one is planned to serve the Oxford Circus area). That wouldn't serve the east end of Oxford Street at all. The flagship Crossrail entrance building (ie equivalent to the JLE's Canary Wharf) will be at the west end of TCR station on Oxford Street, about halfway to Oxford Circus, which is an acknowledgment that this is going to be the destination for many passengers. I know I visit Soho/Covent Garden more often than Mayfair/OC, and I think there's more employment this end as well. All King's Cross is one stop from Farringdon though, and I'd think the lines there are better able to handle it than those at OC. I'm not sure either problem can be solved. There's a limit to how many people can safely be getting on and off at one stop or use one line. Crossrail is taking the strategy of sending people to alternate routes. I presume that the TCR station will be a cut/cover box design - which is a heck of a lot cheaper to build than a tunneled station constructed entirely underground. All of the underground stations will be deep-level bored structures (though I'm not certain about Woolwich). Building TCR as cut and cover would mean demolishing half of Soho (and they're already demolishing quite a lot of it to build the ticket halls and shafts). |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2007 22:01:03 GMT
Wasn't one the the plans for TCR station western entrance to be close to Oxford Circus but was ruled out due to the fact the station can't cope with the expected volumes of passgers without rebuilding the platforms there?
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Post by ianvisits on Dec 27, 2007 9:05:44 GMT
I should clarify.
I didn't think the entire platform length would be a cut/cover construction - more that the central passenger core would be.
As with Westminster station on the Jubilee Line, the central core is cut/cover and the platforms were tunneled out.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2007 13:41:23 GMT
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Post by Dmitri on Dec 27, 2007 14:53:10 GMT
Here is the link to some of the plans for the stations. For some reason it doesn't use the whole link so you'll have to cut and paste the address'. Forum software's dislike for the special symbols in the URLs is well known  . However, the following works nicely: Bond Street. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2007 20:02:43 GMT
The Hanover Square entrance is quiet close to Oxford Circus so Im wondering if some underground passageway will be built? Let's hope that the plans are flexible enough to incorporate this at some future date. Pity also that the Piccadilly has such a poor connection to Crossrail, but I can't quite see how a limited-station service could please everyone. But in my mind, not having a direct interchange to Crossrail at Kings Cross is the biggest missed opportunity. However, not quite sure how that could have been realised - the station is heaving as it is, and there's only so much enlargement that would be effective! |
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Post by Colin on Dec 27, 2007 20:25:17 GMT
However, not quite sure how that could have been realised - the station is heaving as it is, and there's only so much enlargement that would be effective! You've actually answered your point about Oxford Circus with the statement quoted above! That said though, I'd go one further and say that it's not just station capacity that needs to be considered - you also have to consider where all the extra people will go once they leave the station. To that end, I just can't imagine there's enough pavement space outside Oxford Circus station to accommodate all the extra people from Crossrail. Ok, some of those will have diverted from the Central line, but given the places Cross Rail will serve, there will still be substantially more people milling about - and if those extra people can't fit outside the station, they'll back up into the station itself........... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2007 20:55:38 GMT
You've actually answered your point about Oxford Circus with the statement quoted above! Actually, what I meant in the last post was that it's a pity the line doesn't go through KX - going to Farringdon instead. Though it would be a rather sharp bend to the north before turning back east. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2007 21:41:40 GMT
As said many times before, Oxford Circus actually needs less lines stopping there, not more. It is seriously overcrowded as it is. It can reach dangerous levels and has to close quite often because of this.
I think this is a great opportunity for people to learn that visiting the West End does not necessarily have to mean travelling to Oxford Circus. Bond Street Crossrail will just be a 100 yards/metres away.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 27, 2007 22:04:03 GMT
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Post by cetacean on Dec 28, 2007 0:18:08 GMT
Interesting. The introduction says it's to mitigate "plain lining" at Whitechapel. A bit more digging says they're planning to make Whitechapel into a simple two-track through station to make space for (I think) escalators down to Crossrail. |
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 28, 2007 1:00:17 GMT
That does sound like a good idea. I would have said an Oxford Circus/TCR station would be better as the area around Centre Point does require a bit of tarting up. What are the distances involved though? This is what they are doing at Liverpool St, which will also have an entrance at Moorgate station. You make that sound as though the Moorgate entrance will be minor but nothing could be further from the truth. The plans are for a ticket hall beneath the Met platforms as large as the bull ring at King's Cross and an entrance no less grand than that at Liverpool Street. I can't now recall the escalator arrangements here but ISTR they are just as substantial as those planned for the Liverpool Street entrance. In deed at Liverpool street the plans involve driving three new escalators down beneath the Met tracks from the one time canteen area, the Queen Victoria tunnel, although by now this may house the UPS switchrooms which were planned after the shelving of CrossRail. I would imagine this means demolishing the old Met signal cabin which I would've thought was a listed building. As for a combined OXO/TCR station I think that OXO is busy enough already and would probably be unable to cope at all during construction if it were to occur and would thus perhaps be required to be closed to the public at street level for many months. At TCR the impacted area is massive cutting through both Central and Northern line passageways and platform tunnels. I can't now recall the extent of the works but certainly the area at the base of centre point is involved as is the main ventilation shaft and areas on both sides of Oxford Street. I can't really see the point of a combined OXO/TCR when the Central runs parallel through TCR and Bond Street. Having said that I think to some degree the concept of a combined station is a little off really as my understanding is simply that CrossRail will have no exits of its own in most of the central area using LU stations as convenient access/egress points as it were. I'm not sure how the management of such facilities will be undertaken but I would expect CrossRail to have totally separate management at its level. |
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 28, 2007 1:21:14 GMT
You've actually answered your point about Oxford Circus with the statement quoted above! Actually, what I meant in the last post was that it's a pity the line doesn't go through KX - going to Farringdon instead. Though it would be a rather sharp bend to the north before turning back east. When CrossRail was planned Farringdon was intended to have been a massive interchange station and already relieving King's Cross by now. There is no knowing what will happen as plans come and go over the years and no one plan will ever suit everyone! |
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Post by cetacean on Dec 28, 2007 1:34:25 GMT
Having said that I think to some degree the concept of a combined station is a little off really as my understanding is simply that CrossRail will have no exits of its own in most of the central area using LU stations as convenient access/egress points as it were. That's not how it looks to me. Most of the stations seem to involve putting a new Crossrail entrance building next door to the tube station with a token interchange passage underground. The only places I can think of where Crossrail is just part of the tube station are TCR (east end only, massive new entrance at west end), Barbican (but not Farringdon), Liverpool St (but not Moorgate) and Whitechapel. |
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Post by ianvisits on Dec 28, 2007 9:05:59 GMT
When CrossRail was planned Farringdon was intended to have been a massive interchange station and already relieving King's Cross by now. When CrossRail was originally planned, Farringdon still had steam trains arriving at the platforms ;) |
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 28, 2007 12:23:03 GMT
Having said that I think to some degree the concept of a combined station is a little off really as my understanding is simply that CrossRail will have no exits of its own in most of the central area using LU stations as convenient access/egress points as it were. That's not how it looks to me. Most of the stations seem to involve putting a new Crossrail entrance building next door to the tube station with a token interchange passage underground. The only places I can think of where Crossrail is just part of the tube station are TCR (east end only, massive new entrance at west end), Barbican (but not Farringdon), Liverpool St (but not Moorgate) and Whitechapel. Interesting but then it's more than 10 years since I looked at the plans and indeed at that time I was only looking at the impact to LU sites which was major at Paddington (Bakerloo line platforms and passageways to Lawn ticket Hall, little impact to D/C line), Liverpool Street (Met QV tunnel, outer rail platform, main ticket hall and Central line ticket hall) , Moorgate (beneath platforms 1 & 2, disused interchange from Met to Northern), TCR (Central line platforms and several passageways, main vent shaft and lower circulating area) and less so at Farringdon (mostly the sidings and platforms east end) and Barbican but with some impact in the tunnel between the stations which will be affected. Bond Street was the only site that I never surveyed because the project was shelved but I do know that the impact there was mostly in the vicinity of the substation. The CrossRail site does not appear to have the drawings of the impacts to LUL assets. |
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 28, 2007 12:25:14 GMT
When CrossRail was planned Farringdon was intended to have been a massive interchange station and already relieving King's Cross by now. When CrossRail was originally planned, Farringdon still had steam trains arriving at the platforms ;) It still has, hasn't it? One could certainly be forgiven for thinking it as the UK has to be amongst the world's worst at planning and financing anything transport related in a given time scale! |
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Post by edwin on Dec 30, 2007 3:07:50 GMT
Will three escalators really be enough from platform level to the ticket halls, Crossrail stations need four IMO.
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 30, 2007 8:27:20 GMT
Will three escalators really be enough from platform level to the ticket halls, Crossrail stations need four IMO. Depends upon the station, ISTR that Paddington Plans showed 20+ new escalators for CrossRail! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2008 13:22:37 GMT
Next to all the points already made, I'd like to add that TCR would also become the interchange with Crossrail 2, the Chelsea Hackney line.
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. However, the following works nicely:
