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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2017 15:43:12 GMT
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Post by redbond on Feb 1, 2017 14:50:11 GMT
It was intended to be its full operating name, hence the PR about the CROSSRAIL roundel (hence it would only have remained as the tri-stripe logo), signalling and location-coding all using CR prefixes (not E or EL) EL wouldn't have been available anyway, EL is the prefix for the East London Line signalling. |
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Post by phoenixcronin on Feb 1, 2017 15:55:21 GMT
This ambiguity that TfL have now willingly, knowingly and deliberately introduced between 'modes' and 'lines' is lamentable, but is obviously here to stay. "Crossrail" was NOT originally intended to only be the name of the construction company. It was intended to be its full operating name, hence the PR about the CROSSRAIL roundel (hence it would only have remained as the tri-stripe logo), signalling and location-coding all using CR prefixes (not E or EL) *and* signage being not only designed, but procured and installed. I think we all know the real reason why Boris decided to make this change happen, and I think I can fairly safely say everyone on the outside AND inside Crossrail were taken very severely aback when it came out. As for that leaflet - that "one sentence" example indicates to me that the leaflet was actually put together by somebody within as a joke, to show the lunacy of the situation, and yet was picked up on to roll out because someone involved in the renaming exercise thought "ooh, that looks good, somebody's done my work for me", with the person who did it being quickly approached by said person and asked if they could use it officially, and the person who did it being taken aback and thinking "phew, I thought I was in trouble". Exactly! This entire sycophantic renaming shamble has been a disaster, not to mention probably expensive. My only hope is that enough people will keep calling it Crossrail once it opens that they eventually give in and revert to the original name, or at least re-instate the Crossrail prefix. |
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Post by stapler on Feb 1, 2017 16:36:29 GMT
How about the Maypickles line, after the MPs for the two ends?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 1, 2017 16:52:18 GMT
signalling and location-coding all using CR prefixes (not E or EL) EL wouldn't have been available anyway, EL is the prefix for the East London Line signalling. Although TfL now prefer to call the ELL by the catchy hexadekasyllabic name "Highbury & Islington to West Croydon/Clapham Junction" Line. How about the Maypickles line, after the MPs for the two ends? Teresa Pearce is MP for Erith & Thamesmead, which includes Abbey Wood, so it can be the Two-Theresa Line! |
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Post by brigham on Feb 1, 2017 17:00:52 GMT
Whatever the reasoning behind the change, at least we've managed to avoid another different mode of transport being loaded onto the map.
The railways are fragmented enough with Underground, NR(and all the various operators thereon), the absurd 'Overground'(which originated in a BR spoof poster campaign in the '70s), Thameslink, et.al., without yet another distinct type of '...rail'appearing.
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Post by phoenixcronin on Feb 1, 2017 17:30:54 GMT
EL wouldn't have been available anyway, EL is the prefix for the East London Line signalling. Although TfL now prefer to call the ELL by the catchy hexadekasyllabic name "Highbury & Islington to West Croydon/Clapham Junction" Line. Which is particularly bizarre since it omits one of the destinations (New Cross) |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 1, 2017 23:04:10 GMT
Although TfL now prefer to call the ELL by the catchy hexadekasyllabic name "Highbury & Islington to West Croydon/Clapham Junction" Line. Which is particularly bizarre since it omits one of the destinations (New Cross) Two of the destinations (Crystal Palace) |
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Post by Dom K on Feb 1, 2017 23:19:31 GMT
Back on topic please. Be careful not to drag this thread into the FRIPAS as it will move there if necessary
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Post by superteacher on Mar 14, 2018 15:20:43 GMT
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 14, 2018 16:12:21 GMT
The roundels outside the station and the main header on the TfL webpage etc should be Crossrail - it is a brand like Underground and Overground.
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 14, 2018 17:03:24 GMT
It will be interesting to see how Crossrail 2 will manifest itself should it come to fruition, the Elizabeth line is a bit of a "brand orphan" at the moment with no mode to call it's own.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2018 20:11:31 GMT
TFL should've planned for future crossrails by making the roundels outside stations say "crossrail". Crossrail 2 could've been green or pink on the map yet still use a purple "crossrail" roundel. Instead, with the way things are looking, each crossrail will appear to be yet another form of transport as if they aren't all part of the same network.As Golden Arrow said above, it will be interesting to see how things progress.
Saying that, I honestly can't expect much of TFL, after all, they refer to the ELL as "Highbury & Islington - West croydon/Clapham junction/Crystal Palace/New cross" as if there isn't a better name for it.
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Post by silenthunter on Mar 17, 2018 16:29:54 GMT
People still use 'DHSS' to describe the benefits agencies, I believe. |
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Post by londoner on Mar 18, 2018 21:17:50 GMT
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 18, 2018 23:08:00 GMT
The cost to rename a line or station before it opens will be very significantly less than the cost to rename once open, particularly if you've not yet produced all the signage and haven't commissioned the signalling yet.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2018 23:15:46 GMT
This ambiguity that TfL have now willingly, knowingly and deliberately introduced between 'modes' and 'lines' is lamentable, but is obviously here to stay. "Crossrail" was NOT originally intended to only be the name of the construction company. It was intended to be its full operating name, hence the PR about the CROSSRAIL roundel (hence it would only have remained as the tri-stripe logo), signalling and location-coding all using CR prefixes (not E or EL) *and* signage being not only designed, but procured and installed. I think we all know the real reason why Boris decided to make this change happen, and I think I can fairly safely say everyone on the outside AND inside Crossrail were taken very severely aback when it came out. As for that leaflet - that "one sentence" example indicates to me that the leaflet was actually put together by somebody within as a joke, to show the lunacy of the situation, and yet was picked up on to roll out because someone involved in the renaming exercise thought "ooh, that looks good, somebody's done my work for me", with the person who did it being quickly approached by said person and asked if they could use it officially, and the person who did it being taken aback and thinking "phew, I thought I was in trouble". Exactly! This entire sycophantic renaming shamble has been a disaster, not to mention probably expensive. My only hope is that enough people will keep calling it Crossrail once it opens that they eventually give in and revert to the original name, or at least re-instate the Crossrail prefix. It's Consignia-level idiocy. The project has been Crossrail from the beginning, with a symbol that is as recognisable as the BR "arrows of indecision" to the general public. "Elizabeth Line" also tells you nothing about the route, which will probably result in people thinking they are completely different lines, leading to yet more confusion. |
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Post by brigham on Mar 19, 2018 9:57:54 GMT
As far as I can remember, the 'crossrail' project was a scheme to connect the four 'regions' of British Rail. and the name derived from the fact that it resembled a cross.
The present-day project seems to be neither of these things. It now resembles an urban-railway expansion beyond even that of the Metropolitan.
The central area certainly needs combining with the existing Underground network. The other outsider, 'Thameslink', could benefit similarly.
The concept of a 'unified' urban/suburban rail network seems further away with every new development. Crossrail could have been presented as 'London's newest -and biggest- Tube', leaving no-one in any doubt about what it is, or who it is for.
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Post by Chris M on Mar 19, 2018 10:30:28 GMT
Thameslink is a regional distance railway that happens to serve the urban core on it's way through.
Crossrail is an urban transit railway that happens to extend a long way outside the urban area at each end.
They are completely different animals, neither of which is or is trying to be a suburban network, let alone unify anything.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 19, 2018 10:55:48 GMT
Thameslink is a regional distance railway that happens to serve the urban core on it's way through. Crossrail is an urban transit railway that happens to extend a long way outside the urban area at each end. They are completely different animals, neither of which is or is trying to be a suburban network, let alone unify anything. Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. Suburban services such as St Albans to Sutton, Welwyn to Sevenoaks, and Luton to Orpington, are as much a part of Thameslink as the longer distance services with which they are forced to share the core. The complaints from longer distance passengers about the Class 700s reflect the unhappy compromises that have had to be made. As for Crossrail, are Ilford, Romford, Abbey Wood, Ealing and Southall not suburbs? |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 19, 2018 12:30:53 GMT
Ilford et al are suburbs, but that doens't make Crossrail a suburban railway any more than Kew and Plaistow make the District line a suburban railway. They are suburbs served by an urban transit railway.
I'd forgotten about the suburban Thameslink though.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 19, 2018 13:11:39 GMT
I don't think you can always pigeonhole railway services like that. Many railways have to perform different functions at different points along their line of route. Some local services in Cornwall are operated by Sprinters, others by HSTs. For a passenger from Hayle to Truro it is irrelevant whether the train is only going to Plymouth, or all the way to Paddington.
In an extreme case, should the timings suit their working hours, residents of the Spean Valley could use the Caledonian Sleeper as a commuter service into Fort William, as it provides seating accommodation to and from local stations on the West Highland Line.
The Metropolitan, despite its predecessor actively cultivating development in suburban Middlesex and Hertfordshire, still has to provide part of the deceidedly urban-mass-transit operation between the City and Baker Street. The seating layout on the S8 stock is the resulting compromise. Similarly, Ilfordians etc will, perforce, shortly find their suburban service provided by a mass transit operator, just as suburbs like Plaistow, Finchley, Woodford etc did when their local services were handed over to the Underground (and Kingston et al will if XR2 ever happens)
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 19, 2018 20:16:58 GMT
Thameslink is a regional distance railway that happens to serve the urban core on it's way through. Crossrail is an urban transit railway that happens to extend a long way outside the urban area at each end. They are completely different animals, neither of which is or is trying to be a suburban network, let alone unify anything. Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. Suburban services such as St Albans to Sutton, Welwyn to Sevenoaks, and Luton to Orpington, are as much a part of Thameslink as the longer distance services with which they are forced to share the core. The complaints from longer distance passengers about the Class 700s reflect the unhappy compromises that have had to be made. As for Crossrail, are Ilford, Romford, Abbey Wood, Ealing and Southall not suburbs? The overall brand is National Rail. Lines are marketed below it. Overground and Crossrail are sub brands of National Rail. (The above ground stations on Crossrail are leased from Network Rail.) |
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Post by silenthunter on Mar 19, 2018 21:57:03 GMT
I don't think you can always pigeonhole railway services like that. Many railways have to perform different functions at different points along their line of route. Some local services in Cornwall are operated by Sprinters, others by HSTs. For a passenger from Hayle to Truro it is irrelevant whether the train is only going to Plymouth, or all the way to Paddington. In an extreme case, should the timings suit their working hours, residents of the Spean Valley could use the Caledonian Sleeper as a commuter service into Fort William, as it provides seating accommodation to and from local stations on the West Highland Line. The Metropolitan, despite its predecessor actively cultivating development in suburban Middlesex and Hertfordshire, still has to provide part of the deceidedly urban-mass-transit operation between the City and Baker Street. The seating layout on the S8 stock is the resulting compromise. Similarly, Ilfordians etc will, perforce, shortly find their suburban service provided by a mass transit operator, just as suburbs like Plaistow, Finchley, Woodford etc did when their local services were handed over to the Underground (and Kingston et al will if XR2 ever happens) Plaistow's local services on BR weren't handed over to LRT; they were just eliminated entirely when electrification occurred. |
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Post by silenthunter on Mar 19, 2018 21:59:28 GMT
Thameslink is a regional distance railway that happens to serve the urban core on it's way through. Crossrail is an urban transit railway that happens to extend a long way outside the urban area at each end. They are completely different animals, neither of which is or is trying to be a suburban network, let alone unify anything. Thameslink is two suburban/regional railways joined together by a reopened tunnel through Central London. For Crossrail, the tunnels are newly built. Also, Shenfield isn't that far from the Greater London conurbation and the High Level services have been electrified since 1949; the 345s are the third generation of EMUs on the line. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 20, 2018 8:19:51 GMT
suburban service provided by a mass transit operator, just as suburbs like Plaistow, ...........etc did when their local services were handed over to the Underground Plaistow's local services on BR weren't handed over to LRT; they were just eliminated entirely when electrification occurred. It was only Plaistow's limited express services to Fenchurch Street that were eliminated in 1962, when the fast lines were electrified. However, far from having been eliminated, Plaistow's local service continues to this day: provided by the Underground, as it has been since 4th-rail electrification of the slow lines in 1908. Thameslink is two suburban/regional railways joined together by a reopened tunnel through Central London. For Crossrail, the tunnels are newly built. So are the Canal Tunnels on Thameslink. Both TL and XR use a mixture of new and existing infrastructure. Extension of suburban services through tunnels under central London has been going on since the 1860s. They are so well-integrated into the warp and weave of London that people don't notice. - The original Metropolitan Railway was designed and built to carry GWR services to Moorgate. It still does - over the former GWR Hammersmith branch. - Likewise the District Line carries traffic over former LSWR lines (Wimbledon - Putney, Richmond - Hammersmith) right through the City and out the other side over former LTSR tracks to Upminster. - The LNWR's local services to Harrow & Wealdstone have been operated by the Underground for over 100 years. - In 1933 the South Harrow to Acton Town shuttle service, and the one from Hounslow Barracks to Acton Town were both extended to Hammersmith to join up with the Piccadilly. - The Bakerloo (now Jubilee) took over local services between Baker Street and Wembley Park from the Metropolitan in 1938. - The ex-Great Northern Railway's High Barnet Branch has been part of the Northern Line since 1940. - The ex-Great Eastern Railway's Epping and Hainault branches have been part of the Central Line since 1946. So have local services on the former GWR line between Acton and West Ruislip - The ex-Great Northern Railway's Welwyn and Hertford services were connected to the Underground's Northern City line in 1975 - Crossrail is just the latest example. - Thameslink has existed, in one form or another, since the Metropolitan Railway was built in 1863 to allow GNR, and later Midland Railway, trains to reach Farringdon. The connection to Blackfriars followed in 1868. |
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Post by brigham on Mar 20, 2018 10:40:18 GMT
As long as through ticketing is available, it isn't important from the passengers' point of view who operates the service. What IS important is that passengers are given the information they need to make their journeys in the simplest, least complicated form.
Telling passengers to 'leave the Underground, and join another transport system which is also an underground railway, but isn't the Underground...' is not helpful.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 20, 2018 17:20:13 GMT
Similarly, Ilfordians etc will, perforce, shortly find their suburban service provided by a mass transit operator, just as suburbs like Plaistow, Finchley, Woodford etc did when their local services were handed over to the Underground (and Kingston et al will if XR2 ever happens) Surely Ilfordians already have their train service provided by a mass transit operator? - MTR Crossrail under contract to TfL. Nowt changes on that score for a long time unless you have a scoop about MTR Crossrail's future?   |
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Post by snoggle on Mar 20, 2018 17:25:04 GMT
Extension of suburban services through tunnels under central London has been going on since the 1860s. They are so well-integrated into the warp and weave of London that people don't notice. [snip list] This Citymetric article makes a very similar point to the one you've made but more in the context of London having a form of RER network (north of the Thames largely) which is called the Underground rather than something seperate. Note the article does contain one example of "crayon railway design" that mods may get twitchy about if referred to in subsequent comments.  www.citymetric.com/transport/why-doesn-t-london-build-rer-network-paris-crossrail-elizabeth |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 20, 2018 19:11:18 GMT
Surely Ilfordians already have their train service provided by a mass transit operator? - MTR Crossrail ) It's a question of definitions. I was considering the existing Shenfield services, so far unchanged except for branding, to still be a suburban operation. When the core opens it will become mass transit. |
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