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Post by jamesb on May 23, 2016 10:49:57 GMT
I was at Roding Valley this morning with my parents.
The central line status was 'no service between Leytonstone and Hainault anti clockwise while we fix a signal failure at Leytonstone' The live arrivals via the tfl website makes reference to 'inner rail - platform 1' and 'outer rail - platform 2'.
Several trains were going via platform 2 (outer rail) to either Grange Hill or Hainault.
I find the terminology confusing - I could not work out if trains would continue via Hainault to central London, or if they would terminate at Hainault. How do I know what is clockwise and what is anti clockwise (in the context of the Hainault loop)? Or what is inner rail and what is outer rail?
I did work out that anti clockwise would be looking at the loop on a map as a clock - with Woodford at 12 o'clock, but the terminology doesn't seem very friendly to a tourist, who speaks limited English, for example...
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Post by will on May 23, 2016 11:54:24 GMT
Agreed they could do with saying something like trains from Leytonstone to Hainault via Newbury Park are suspended with a good service for trains running to Leytonstone from Hainault. You definitely aren't the first to be confused and they should really rename the platforms to anti-clockwise trains run on the anti-clockwise platform rather than inner rail and vice versa as once you've worked out which direction their going then you have to almost know the plan of the station to plan your journey.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2016 11:59:15 GMT
Okay, so you're absolutely right, so the "clock" is the Hainault loop as it appears on your standard tube map. So you can imagine Chigwell is 12 o'clock, Fairlop is 3 o'clock, Redbridge is 6 o'clock and South Woodford is 9 o'clock. Ish. So clockwise is Leytonstone - Woodford - Hainault - Newbury Park - Leytonstone - Woodford .... And anticlockwise is Leytonstone - Newbury Park - Hainault - Woodford - Leytonstone - Newbury Park ... So, no service between Leytonstone and Hainault anticlockwise means Leytonstone - Wanstead - Redbridge - Gants Hill - Newbury Park - Barkingside - Fairlop - Hainault is out of action. But Hainault - Grange Hill - Chigwell - Roding Valley - Woodford is in action and so is Woodford - Roding Valley - Chigwell - Grange Hill - Hainault - Fairlop - Barkingside - Newbury Park - Gants Hill - Redbridge - Wanstead - Leytonstone. At least, according to the service status message, but contents may vary Now inner rail and outer rail are defined based on the fact that London Underground trains run on the left. So the inside track (inner rail) is Leytonstone - Newbury Park - Hainault - Woodford (anti clockwise) and the outside track (outer rail) is Woodford - Hainault - Newbury Park - Leytonstone (clockwise) Obviously the map is stylised, but there really is a fairly tight curve Gants Hill - Newbury Park and clearly the trains from Gants Hill to Newbury Park are on the inside track (inner rail) and the trains from Gants Hill to Newbury Park are on the outside (outer rail). Now, onto the next bit. Trains from Roding Valley to Hainault are always described as "Hainault" on the platform describers and are supposed to be described as Hainault on the front of the train. In normal conditions almost all of these trains continue to central London, but they are described as Hainault as far as Hainault in order to encourage passengers for the city at Roding Valley to take the faster route via Woodford. Woodford station is obviously where this difference really counts. Trains to central London via Hainault are always described as Hainault trains at Woodford so passengers will go via the mainline via South Woodford. Imagine getting a "White City" service as an unsuspecting punter and finding yourself going via Roding Valley! Hence, quoting from the Working Time Table: In practice this is not always adhered to. As for whether they would terminate at Hainault in this case, I can only guess, because obviously the disruption might require a little bit of juggling - as demonstrated by the fact that trains were going to Grange Hill presumably for the depot. However, the service status message implies that on arrival at Hainault - whether your train would have continued to London or not - it would have been possible to continue on to London, possibly by boarding another train. The service status message says that Hainault to Leytonstone via Newbury Park is running, but Leytonstone to Hainault via Newbury Park is not. However, you may very well have had a bit of a wait at Hainault. Or not. There's no way of knowing.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 23, 2016 13:19:49 GMT
Clockwise and anticlockwise make sense on any loop, and there isn't really a need to define a "twelve o'clock" , anymore than there is when told in which direction to turn a screwdriver or a gas tap, or use the M25.
(Incidentally, as a useful reminder of where the junctions are on the M25, it is useful to recall that there are 30 of them (well, 30/31 is really one complex junction), and that they are numbered clockwise from Dartford. Thus, if you multiply the junction number by 2 and calling it minutes, you will get the approximate position of the junction on a clockface with east at the top. So Junction 7: 7x2=14=roughly quarter past (i.e south) - which is correct: Junction 7 is the Gatwick turnoff).
Inner Rail and Outer Rail only make sense to someone who knows that we drive on the left.
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Post by stapler on May 23, 2016 13:37:34 GMT
Are there many using Roding Valley who don't know we drive on the left? On second thoughts, there probably ARE some in Chigwell, where eveything is bling.....
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 23, 2016 13:48:32 GMT
The Central Line Supplement to Rule Book states:
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Post by patrickb on May 24, 2016 19:14:35 GMT
I suppose that if you regularly use the loop like I do, you would have a clearer understanding of the various 'directions'. If you travel to Hainault via Woodford, you're on the clockwise outer rail service. If you travel to Hainault via Newbury Park, you're on the anti-clockwise inner rail service. Furthermore, trains travelling to London via the loop at Roding Valley, Ghigwell and Grange Hill are actually described as either White City or Ealing Broadway Trains, NOT Hainualt trains unless trains actually terminate there and reverse. The destination on the front of the train usually changes once it has stopped at Roding Valley.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 20:59:52 GMT
I suppose that if you regularly use the loop like I do, you would have a clearer understanding of the various 'directions'. If you travel to Hainault via Woodford, you're on the clockwise outer rail service. If you travel to Hainault via Newbury Park, you're on the anti-clockwise inner rail service. Furthermore, trains travelling to London via the loop at Roding Valley, Ghigwell and Grange Hill are actually described as either White City or Ealing Broadway Trains, NOT Hainualt trains unless trains actually terminate there and reverse. The destination on the front of the train usually changes once it has stopped at Roding Valley. I may be wrong, but I believe that every train from Roding Valley towards Hainault is booked to carry on into the city in the current timetable, except the very last train at night, which does terminate at Hainault. Otherwise trains towards Hainault only terminate there during disruption (or other unusual circumstances) and a train arriving at Roding Valley, etc. with Hainault on the front should not be assumed to be actually terminating there. Indeed, if the driver is strictly following the directions, this is precisely what the train should show. It's true that more often than not, the actual destination is shown on the front long before arrival at Grange Hill, but Hainault on the front does not mean the train really is terminating at Hainault and I've been on plenty that have been described as Hainault as far as Grange Hill, before magically converting into a city-bound service. I think I'm right in saying that the boards on the platforms will always show Hainault, no?
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Post by patrickb on May 24, 2016 21:59:14 GMT
I suppose that if you regularly use the loop like I do, you would have a clearer understanding of the various 'directions'. If you travel to Hainault via Woodford, you're on the clockwise outer rail service. If you travel to Hainault via Newbury Park, you're on the anti-clockwise inner rail service. Furthermore, trains travelling to London via the loop at Roding Valley, Ghigwell and Grange Hill are actually described as either White City or Ealing Broadway Trains, NOT Hainualt trains unless trains actually terminate there and reverse. The destination on the front of the train usually changes once it has stopped at Roding Valley. I may be wrong, but I believe that every train from Roding Valley towards Hainault is booked to carry on into the city in the current timetable, except the very last train at night, which does terminate at Hainault. Otherwise trains towards Hainault only terminate there during disruption (or other unusual circumstances) and a train arriving at Roding Valley, etc. with Hainault on the front should not be assumed to be actually terminating there. Indeed, if the driver is strictly following the directions, this is precisely what the train should show. It's true that more often than not, the actual destination is shown on the front long before arrival at Grange Hill, but Hainault on the front does not mean the train really is terminating at Hainault and I've been on plenty that have been described as Hainault as far as Grange Hill, before magically converting into a city-bound service. I think I'm right in saying that the boards on the platforms will always show Hainault, no? Not every train but most trains. A few early and late evening trains start or finish at Grange Hill/Hainualt via Woodford with a few extra 'rare' Grange Hill via Woodford Trains throughout the day. As you pointed out, the driver should display the correct destination, being either 'Hainault', 'Hainault Via Woodford' or 'Grange Hill'. These shouldn't change if trains terminate there and return to Hainault Depot. Most trains do continue to Central London, and very often they will appear on Platform Boards with 'Hainualt' and also 'Ealing Broadway', the same applies to Destination Boards at Station Entrances. Saying this may lead to suggest that there is a lack of clarity, and whilst this at times may be true, many travelers at Grange Hill, Chigwell and Roding Valley will not hesitate to board the next train, as long as they can reach Hainault or Woodford in good time.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 22:04:26 GMT
I may be wrong, but I believe that every train from Roding Valley towards Hainault is booked to carry on into the city in the current timetable, except the very last train at night, which does terminate at Hainault. Otherwise trains towards Hainault only terminate there during disruption (or other unusual circumstances) and a train arriving at Roding Valley, etc. with Hainault on the front should not be assumed to be actually terminating there. Indeed, if the driver is strictly following the directions, this is precisely what the train should show. It's true that more often than not, the actual destination is shown on the front long before arrival at Grange Hill, but Hainault on the front does not mean the train really is terminating at Hainault and I've been on plenty that have been described as Hainault as far as Grange Hill, before magically converting into a city-bound service. I think I'm right in saying that the boards on the platforms will always show Hainault, no? Not every train but most trains. A few early and late evening trains start or finish at Grange Hill/Hainualt via Woodford with a few extra 'rare' Grange Hill via Woodford Trains throughout the day. As you pointed out, the driver should display the correct destination, being either 'Hainault', 'Hainault Via Woodford' or 'Grange Hill'. These shouldn't change if trains terminate there and return to Hainault Depot. Most trains do continue to Central London, and very often they will appear on Platform Boards with 'Hainualt' and also 'Ealing Broadway', the same applies to Destination Boards at Station Entrances. Saying this may lead to suggest that there is a lack of clarity, and whilst this at times may be true, many travelers at Grange Hill, Chigwell and Roding Valley will not hesitate to board the next train, as long as they can reach Hainault or Woodford in good time. I think you must just be lucky. It is true that seven trains start from Grange Hill in the morning, and one in the evening. However, there is only one train booked to Grange Hill via Woodford and none are booked to Hainault via Woodford. Plain "Grange Hill" is not available as a destination, only "Grange Hill via Woodford".
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2016 12:18:43 GMT
For the past two evenings (June 1st and 2nd) The Grange Hill via Woodford has been a Hainault via Woodford train. The board at Notting Hill Gate, (where I join the train) stated Hainault via Woodford.
Has anyone else noticed this ?
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Post by superteacher on Jun 3, 2016 12:21:39 GMT
For the past two evenings (June 1st and 2nd) The Grange Hill via Woodford has been a Hainault via Woodford train. The board at Notting Hill Gate, (where I join the train) stated Hainault via Woodford.
Has anyone else noticed this ?
This sometimes happens when a train has been cancelled. Train 26, which is the Grange Hill train, is extended to Hainault where it is reformed to take the place of another.
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Post by peterc on Jul 4, 2016 13:41:18 GMT
Which shows that a description that is "obvious" to one person can be confusing to another. With a loop I associate "inner" as being the side nearer the inside of the loop and "outer" nearer the outside regardless of direction of travel.
Whatever you do with customer information there will be: a) people who will still get it wrong b) somebody who will claim to be confused purely for the sake of complaining.
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Post by Chris M on Jul 4, 2016 13:47:45 GMT
Which shows that a description that is "obvious" to one person can be confusing to another. With a loop I associate "inner" as being the side nearer the inside of the loop and "outer" nearer the outside regardless of direction of travel. That is the origin of the "inner" and "outer" terms - trains driving on the left will travel on the outside of a loop when heading clockwise and on the inside of the loop when heading anti-clockwise. Whatever you do with customer information there will be: a) people who will still get it wrong b) somebody who will claim to be confused purely for the sake of complaining. Very true.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2016 14:05:17 GMT
At least it's only a case of one way or the other. Just think of the challenge of multiple possible circular routes - like on the South Eastern lines to Dartford!
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Post by djlynch on Jul 4, 2016 15:32:32 GMT
"Clockwise" and "anticlockwise" would be preferable to "inner rail" and "outer rail" for this particular non-Londoner. Although with the potential complexity of that part of the Central, I probably would have phrased my announcement about the situation from the original post as something like "No eastbound service from Leytonstone to Hainault via Newbury Park. Westbound service continues to operate. Trains from central London to these stations will operate via Woodford."
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