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Post by theblackferret on Apr 28, 2016 19:15:23 GMT
I've read that the Met was proposing around 1930 to project 8 trains an hour from Hammersmith over what was then the Met & is now the H & C to Whitechapel, thence down the ELL and on to Addiscombe to become part of the Underground.
I believe they didn't get very far with the Southern Railway in discussions, because the Met was concerned at the run-down state of the Addiscombe Line & its' falling passenger numbers. So I understand the plan was fairly swiftly dropped.
I'd be grateful if anyone can shed more light on this, specifically:
How advanced were these plans-did they make the technical journals or magazines, even newspapers & does anyone know if a formal plan was prepared?
Did any discussions actually take place or did it not reach that level?
Finally, does anyone know which SR stations if any were formally slated as due to convert to Tube stations or with Tube platforms alongside or next to the existing SR facilities?
Many thanks!
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 28, 2016 19:26:46 GMT
Things are never quite as simple as that. The link was the St Mary's curve between Whitechapel and Aldgate East. It was only removed with the East London line becoming part of the Overground.
New Cross and New Cross Gate both used to have connections to the main line and through trains used to run to/from Southern.
There was also a link from the East London line at Shoreditch which allowed access to Liverpool Street.
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pitdiver
No longer gainfully employed
Posts: 439
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Post by pitdiver on Apr 28, 2016 19:48:02 GMT
Have you tried the LT Museum they may have some info about that.
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Post by theblackferret on Apr 28, 2016 21:48:43 GMT
Have you tried the LT Museum they may have some info about that. Thanks-I've found out there is a long article on Addiscombe in London Railway Record #14, so I've emailed them to see if they've got it in the Library. It was in fact a 1925 scheme that was abandoned in 1930, so wasn't far out & apparently serious costings were made at the start, so, if I can get something definitive, I'll let everybody know.
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Post by brigham on Apr 29, 2016 11:25:32 GMT
St.Mary's curve had restricted clearance. It was generally treated as equivalent to single line. This is one of the places often ascribed to the junction in Conan Doyle's 'The Naval Treaty'.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 29, 2016 13:13:48 GMT
St.Mary's curve had restricted clearance. It was generally treated as equivalent to single line. This is one of the places often ascribed to the junction in Conan Doyle's 'The Naval Treaty'. The single line signalling only became necessary when A stock, which was more generously proportioned than some other stocks, was introduced to the ELL. I think you are confusing "The Naval Treaty" with "The Bruce Partington Plans", as it is the latter which involves the Underground. The text specifically states that the body was deposited on the roof of a train near Gloucester Road (presumably at the convergence of the Circle and District, where trains were (and are) often held at signals) and fell off as the train negotiated the junction at Aldgate.
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Post by theblackferret on Apr 29, 2016 15:14:35 GMT
St.Mary's curve had restricted clearance. It was generally treated as equivalent to single line. This is one of the places often ascribed to the junction in Conan Doyle's 'The Naval Treaty'. The single line signalling only became necessary when A stock, which was more generously proportioned than some other stocks, was introduced to the ELL. I think you are confusing "The Naval Treaty" with "The Bruce Partington Plans", as it is the latter which involves the Underground. The text specifically states that the body was deposited on the roof of a train near Gloucester Road (presumably at the convergence of the Circle and District, where trains were (and are) often held at signals) and fell off as the train negotiated the junction at Aldgate. Thank you, Sherlock & Dr Watson. Now could you apply your forensic logic to the question of the Addiscombe papers, 'cos it's got me flummoxed, guv, he said, removing his trademark bowler hat, which in itself was remarkable as he's never worn such in all his born-puff! Yours Insp. Lestrade. Actually, this is a more interesting diversion than that of the Met down to Addiscombe would probably have provided. The Naval Treaty involved Woking & Clapham Junction for the uninitiated.
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Post by brigham on Apr 29, 2016 17:15:05 GMT
You are correct regarding 'The Bruce Partington Plans'. I need to read this (and 'The Naval Treaty') again. It hadn't occurred to me that the unfortunate corpse had travelled on the District, rather than the Met, despite the obvious fact that the former has far more instances of overlooking adjoining property. St. Mary's curve has been abandoned, then? Another blow to flexibility.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 29, 2016 17:40:14 GMT
St. Mary's curve has been abandoned, then? Another blow to flexibility. There's still the Overground/LUL connections at Willesden and Gunnersbury (and in future at Watford High Street) so it's not the end of the world. Besides, with them being seperate networks now, apart from engineering trains there'd be little or nothing to be gained by trying to run S Stock on the ELL particularly as they'd grind to a halt the minute they gained Overground metals.
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Post by phil on Apr 29, 2016 20:27:19 GMT
I've read that the Met was proposing around 1930 to project 8 trains an hour from Hammersmith over what was then the Met & is now the H & C to Whitechapel, thence down the ELL and on to Addiscombe to become part of the Underground. I believe they didn't get very far with the Southern Railway in discussions, because the Met was concerned at the run-down state of the Addiscombe Line & its' falling passenger numbers. So I understand the plan was fairly swiftly dropped. I'd be grateful if anyone can shed more light on this, specifically: How advanced were these plans-did they make the technical journals or magazines, even newspapers & does anyone know if a formal plan was prepared? Did any discussions actually take place or did it not reach that level? Finally, does anyone know which SR stations if any were formally slated as due to convert to Tube stations or with Tube platforms alongside or next to the existing SR facilities? Many thanks! Firstly, as I described on another thread, the Metropolitan Railway company thought itself a cut above the other 'tube railways' serving London - offering a Pullman car service in to the City from Aylesbury for example. It was only after the formation of the "London Passenger Transport Board" in 1933 (an event the Metropolitan Railways management and shareholders bitterly resisted) that the Metropolitan line became more integrated with the other Underground railways that make up todays 'tube' / Underground system Secondly The loading gauge of Metropolitan line trains are virtually identical to mainline ones - as such there would have been no need for separate 'tube' (as in deep level lines) platforms to serve such stock. If additional platforms were needed they could have been built at standard UK height and used by both Met and SR trains. Thirdly, out of all the 'big four' companies created in the 1922 grouping the SR was unique in that it earned far more from passenger traffic than freight. The LMS / LNER / GWR focused their attention on express services and serving UK industry / mines and were not particularly bothered about suburban traffic - regarding it as a bit of a nuisance. Hence when opportunities came along to hand over suburban routes to the LPTB, the GWR, LMS & LNER were quite eager to cooperate. By contrast, the Southern Railway regarded the large revenues generated by commuters as something to be protected and essential to the company's financial well-being. Don't forget the District had wanted to extend from Wimbledon to Sutton but were frustrated at every turn by the LSWR, then the SR who were determined this should not happen - with the result we see today. As such the SR (as with its predecessors, the LSWR, LBSCR and SECR) was incredibly hostile to encroachment by the 'tubes' / Met / District. This was helped by the large investment previously undertaken by electrification by the aforementioned companies, which with the commitment by the SR to continue the process, meant that the SR could quite legitimately say that suburban traffic south of the river should be left to them and the 'tubes' / Met / District should concentrate their efforts north of London where suburban improvements were well down the list of the GWR / LMS / LNERs prorities. Fourthly, even back in the 1930s, the four tracks from New Cross to Lewisham were very congested and just as there is no way of fitting the Overground through that section without removing SE services to London Bridge, the same would have been true of SR services. Expansion to 6 tracks would have been expensive for the Met and with the SR being hostile, securing the necessary powers was unlikely to happen. In reality I suspect it simply boils down to the fact that the Metropolitan Railway Company ( not the Metropolitan line management of the LPTB which only came into being post 1933) was rather frustrated with the low use / profits being generate by their stake in the East London line* and wished to improve them. Its not dissimilar in principle (making better use of an underused asset) to the various proposals they put forward for a time which linked the Northern City Line** to the Metropolitan line proper. With the SR hostile it stood very little chance of success but the Metropolitan possibly thought it worth a go. *(yes, this was purchased from the original owners by the Met in 1913 and didn't become a part of the Northern line until the mid 1930s when the LPTB had forcibly taken over all the previous railway companies concerned) **a joint enterprise owned by the Metropolitan Railway, District Railway, SR (successors to the SECR & LBSCR) & LNER (successor to the GER)
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Post by theblackferret on Apr 29, 2016 20:37:43 GMT
Thank you, phil, that is really useful regarding the background to it. The SR legacy of commuting passengers was also responsible for so few closures post WWII & during Beeching. Even Woodside-Selsdon got dusted off in 1935 after 18 years closed, electrified & survived until 1983, somehow. EDIT Re-reading some of my railway books last night, remembered there was a SER service Addiscombe <--> Liverpool Street over the ELL, before the MDR took over. This started in 1880, but was finished by 1884, never to resume.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 15:22:00 GMT
In reality I suspect it simply boils down to the fact that the Metropolitan Railway Company ( not the Metropolitan line management of the LPTB which only came into being post 1933) was rather frustrated with the low use / profits being generate by their stake in the East London line* and wished to improve them. Its not dissimilar in principle (making better use of an underused asset) to the various proposals they put forward for a time which linked the Northern City Line** to the Metropolitan line proper. With the SR hostile it stood very little chance of success but the Metropolitan possibly thought it worth a go. *(yes, this was purchased from the original owners by the Met in 1913 and didn't become a part of the Northern line until the mid 1930s when the LPTB had forcibly taken over all the previous railway companies concerned) **a joint enterprise owned by the Metropolitan Railway, District Railway, SR (successors to the SECR & LBSCR) & LNER (successor to the GER) The footnotes should be the other way round!
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