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Post by Jerome H on Apr 26, 2016 18:24:32 GMT
I've been gone from this forum for a while, so excuse me if this is covered elsewhere.
Since Crossrail 1 has been named the "Elizabeth Line", does anyone know how Crossrail services will be marketed in 2018?
What I'm getting at is since the line has a new operational name, is Crossrail going to be a running term, or does "Crossrail" end once construction has been completed? Since the Elizabeth Line isn't considered part of the Underground, nor the Overground, however it is the only line of its kind, what will the signs outside the stations, such as ones that currently say "TFL RAIL" say?
The direction TfL takes this could give Crossrail 1 a very different feel. Connecting trains saying "Change here for the Northern and Elizabeth Lines and London Overground Services" versus "Change here for Northern Line, Crossrail, and London Overground Services"
For anyone who is confused by this, I'll lend in an example. In Florida, a privately funding rail link between Orland and Miami is being constructed by "All Aboard Florida". Recently they announced the train service would be called "Brightline". News outlets quickly has to update their terminology to say "the Miami Brightline station" as opposed to "the Miami All Aboard Florida Station"
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Post by phoenixcronin on Apr 26, 2016 19:55:22 GMT
If TFL had even a smidgen of common sense left they would retain "Crossrail" as the name of the network meaning we would have for example Underground, Overground, Crossrail, DLR, Tramlink etc, but then use the "Elizabeth Line" name just for the actual line.
Hopefully this would mean that connecting trains would say for example "Change here for the District line and Crossrail Elizabeth Line". This is what happens on Overground trains at Whitechapel, which say "Change here for the London Underground District and Hammersmith and City Lines".
This would leave the door open for future Crossrail lines to be named the "Crossrail ............. Line"
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Post by superteacher on Apr 26, 2016 20:47:00 GMT
If TFL had even a smidgen of common sense left . . . Hmmmmm . . . |
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Post by snoggle on Apr 26, 2016 21:12:34 GMT
It is difficult at this point to be certain about how "Crossrail" will be marketed. TfL themselves don't seem to have got "their ducks in a row" yet as there's all sorts of confusion in official documents, press releases, social media etc. I'm sure it will sort itself out in due course.
I *think* the basic concept is
1. Crossrail builds the line to the point where all the new construction is finished and handed over to operational use. Crossrail is the name for the construction project and continues to be used. It is also the legal entity charged with project delivery.
2. The service will be called the Elizabeth Line from December 2018 when the tunnelled section (the "obvious" new bit as far as the public are concerned) opens. This will be the name on the trains, signage, website, social media etc as far as TfL are concerned. What the *public* call it is, of course, a different matter.
3. It is not remotely clear (to me anyway) as to what happens when the new class 345s start running from next year nor in May 2018 when the current Heathrow Connect service starts. When the new trains start running was when the Crossrail name and brand was going to start appearing. I suppose TfL could brand it all "TfL Rail" in the interim period. That's no great hardship on the Shenfield route of course. It's also a simple way of indicating a TfL "takeover" in the west.
4. I assume that come December 2018 all the three separate services - Liv St (surface) - Shenfield, Paddington (surface) - Heathrow T4 and Paddington (low level) - Abbey Wood will all be called Elizabeth Line but that throws up a load of complication. However it's conceptually the same complication if it had all been called "Crossrail".
It is worth remembering that TfL had little say in this. This was a Mayoral initiative to create (IMO) a sycophantic "legacy" of his term as Mayor. The fact 20-30 years of a name for this new line was wiped away is neither here nor there for our departing Mayor (9 more days!). I will still call it Crossrail.
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Post by phoenixcronin on Apr 26, 2016 21:19:14 GMT
One would hope that there would be one or two non-lunatics at the asylum to object to such sycophantic naming wiping out a well know name, but apparently not.
I hope at least that they see some sense and use Crossrail on roundels on trains and stations, as to have an individual line on a roundel is very bizarre.
Edit:
I thought I should include this response I got from TFL a while back after I raised some concerns regarding the new name, to do with consistency and roundels etc:
Dear xxxxxxxxx
Thank you for your email of 2 March to the Mayor Boris Johnson about the renaming of Crossrail to Elizabeth line.
Your email was passed to Transport for London (TfL) to reply as we’re responsible for the Mayor’s transport policy and planning.
We understand your concerns.
To mark Her Majesty the Queen, and her 64 years as the longest-reigning British monarch, we decided on the name to celebrate her record service to the nation.
The Mayor of London suggested the new name to The Royal Household as a fitting tribute to her reign. The Queen approved the decision.
Her Majesty the Queen formally approved the proposal in September 2015.
All lines on the Rail & Underground network use the word ‘line’. However labelling of lines on network signage and maps is inconsistent. For example, some signage refers to ‘Jubilee’ where others refer to ‘Jubilee line’. As this is a new line, we're introducing it with consistent branding from the beginning as the ‘Elizabeth line’. As assets are introduced with the Elizabeth line, we'll seek to correct any inconsistencies on other assets as well.
Kind regards
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Post by theblackferret on Apr 26, 2016 21:35:39 GMT
One would hope that there would be one or two non-lunatics at the asylum to object to such sycophantic naming wiping out a well know name, but apparently not.
I hope at least that they see some sense and use Crossrail on roundels on trains and stations, as to have an individual line on a roundel is very bizarre.
Edit:
I thought I should include this response I got from TFL a while back after I raised some concerns regarding the new name, to do with consistency and roundels etc:
Dear xxxxxxxxx
Thank you for your email of 2 March to the Mayor Boris Johnson about the renaming of Crossrail to Elizabeth line.
Your email was passed to Transport for London (TfL) to reply as we’re responsible for the Mayor’s transport policy and planning.
We understand your concerns.
To mark Her Majesty the Queen, and her 64 years as the longest-reigning British monarch, we decided on the name to celebrate her record service to the nation.
The Mayor of London suggested the new name to The Royal Household as a fitting tribute to her reign. The Queen approved the decision.
Her Majesty the Queen formally approved the proposal in September 2015.
All lines on the Rail & Underground network use the word ‘line’. However labelling of lines on network signage and maps is inconsistent. For example, some signage refers to ‘Jubilee’ where others refer to ‘Jubilee line’. As this is a new line, we're introducing it with consistent branding from the beginning as the ‘Elizabeth line’. As assets are introduced with the Elizabeth line, we'll seek to correct any inconsistencies on other assets as well.
Kind regards
I like the ' we decided' bit best-gets the most laughs from me. |
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Post by Chris M on Apr 26, 2016 21:57:04 GMT
One would hope that there would be one or two non-lunatics at the asylum to object to such sycophantic naming wiping out a well know name, but apparently not. I think it far more likely that there are non-lunatics but that Boris ignored them. |
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 27, 2016 19:14:39 GMT
The announcement about Paddington Bakerloo line platforms being closed blames construction work for the Elizabeth line.
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 27, 2016 19:17:38 GMT
I'm sure I've seen somewhere that the new trains will be introduced under the TfL Rail brand, becoming Elizabeth Line upon opening of the central core
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Post by superteacher on Apr 27, 2016 19:33:25 GMT
I'm sure I've seen somewhere that the new trains will be introduced under the TfL Rail brand, becoming Elizabeth Line upon opening of the central core That would make more sense. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 27, 2016 19:39:40 GMT
Bearing in mind it will appear on the tube/rail map in one guise or other anyway, will it really make any difference to the numbers using it what it's called? My daughter (bless her) has lived in Stratford since late last summer and doesn't get lost although she still refers to the lines by colour; "I got the blue one to the airport" and "I got the red one to Grandpop's". She (and a majority I'd guess) will manage just fine, whatever they choose to do.  |
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Post by brigham on Apr 28, 2016 11:54:59 GMT
Bearing in mind it will appear on the tube/rail map in one guise or other anyway, will it really make any difference to the numbers using it what it's called? My daughter (bless her) has lived in Stratford since late last summer and doesn't get lost although she still refers to the lines by colour; "I got the blue one to the airport" and "I got the red one to Grandpop's". She (and a majority I'd guess) will manage just fine, whatever they choose to do. Oh no! Must have branding! Branding comes first, then... err...whatever else you do to run a railway. |
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Post by peterc on Apr 28, 2016 12:27:44 GMT
Branding is what gets your trains carrying passengers rather than fresh air.
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Post by brigham on Apr 28, 2016 13:30:23 GMT
Branding is what gets your trains carrying passengers rather than fresh air. Because no-one really wants to GO anywhere; they need to be talked into it! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 28, 2016 14:23:33 GMT
Branding is what gets your trains carrying passengers rather than fresh air. Do you really believe more people will use Crossrail if it's called the Elizabeth Line? |
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Post by Jerome H on Apr 28, 2016 15:20:40 GMT
As to whether or not more people will use it, depending on how the media now refers to Elizabeth Line construction and terms TfL staff use on opening day, you could have travellers trying to catch a Crossrail train, and being a little confused when directed to the Elizabeth Line.
On a cheeky note, I do wonder how long it will he until someone mixes up the Victoria and Elizabeth when reporting or making a commute.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 28, 2016 16:37:13 GMT
Given that the BBC regularly use a photo of a Victoria line train to illustrate any article about the Underground, I suspect that is only a matter of time before we see an 09 stock on an article about Crossrail.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 28, 2016 21:45:33 GMT
Branding is what gets your trains carrying passengers rather than fresh air. Because no-one really wants to GO anywhere; they need to be talked into it! Well some people will need to be. Yes there will be a massive amount of people who will use Crossrail from day one because they already use TfL Rail / GWR / Central Line / Jubilee Line. However I am sure there will be a significant number of people who will need guidance and information about the new services, especially as they change and extend over a period of a year, and "branding" and "marketing" will help that. I am sure we will all be terribly enthused about Crossrail when it opens but TfL will need to pull in as many punters as possible to make sure it earns stonkingly huge revenue surpluses to help pay back part of the project funding. Part of that revenue is earmarked for many years as part of the project's funding agreement. |
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Post by phoenixcronin on Apr 28, 2016 22:36:33 GMT
As to whether or not more people will use it, depending on how the media now refers to Elizabeth Line construction and terms TfL staff use on opening day, you could have travellers trying to catch a Crossrail train, and being a little confused when directed to the Elizabeth Line. On a cheeky note, I do wonder how long it will he until someone mixes up the Victoria and Elizabeth when reporting or making a commute. At this point notices about construction/engineering work are all over the place. The Bakerloo closure at Paddington mentions "Elizabeth Line" but notices put up just this week at Whitechapel about trains non-stopping eastbound this weekend call it Crossrail |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 28, 2016 23:04:11 GMT
I am sure there will be a significant number of people who will need guidance and information about the new services, especially as they change and extend over a period of a year, and "branding" and "marketing" will help that. I am sure we will all be terribly enthused about Crossrail when it opens but TfL will need to pull in as many punters as possible to make sure it earns stonkingly huge revenue surpluses to help pay back part of the project funding. Part of that revenue is earmarked for many years as part of the project's funding agreement. Branding and marketing are not the same. Marketing lets people know what is available. Branding helps differentiate competing products. Marketing can exist without branding (think back to things like "Go to work on an egg", "Drink a pinta milk a day" "It's so cheap to phone your friends, after six and at weekends", "Post early for Christmas". No need for any branding as there was only one product, and the relevant industry was either nationalised or regulated (the Government guaranteed a minimum price and bought up any surplus production in order to maintain that price - it was therefore the government) and not the individual producers who had an interest in stimulating demand for the product). Yes Crossrail will need to be partly paid for by extra revenue. But its raison d'etre is not to generate new demand but to cope with the extra demand that is already expected, whether the new line is built or not. Marketing will be needed to let people know the services exist. But that does not necessarily require branding with a particular owner's / operator's name. A new line will be added to the map. People will alter their journey patterns. But Crossrail will complement the existing lines,. not compete with them. (In the same way that the rail network as a whole benefits from new facilities such as Lea Bridge, the Borders Line, the ELLX lines) (Even on the privatised lines, it is largely fallacious to think that the operators are really competing with each other except in a very few cases. Southern, SWT and LO feed each other at Clapham Junction, for example, the interchange allowing many journeys that cannot be provided by one operator alone (e.g Barnes to Victoria, or Denmark Hill to Wandsworth Common) |
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Post by brigham on Apr 29, 2016 10:33:56 GMT
Unless, of course, we start to see a culture of boycott. I suppose we might hear "I don't use Israeli oranges/South African diamonds/Halal dancing girls/Crossrail..."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 15:37:49 GMT
I'm colour blind - just like ~9% of the male population in general - so colours can be confusing. Crossrail should obviously be the name of the network. Elizabeth Line the name of the line. With further devolution, a long overdue naming of lines need to be introduced on the LO, but that is a seperate discussion.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 29, 2016 18:41:27 GMT
I overheard someone on a HST into Paddington today talking about how to navigate through London. Their comments included that you could take "an orange train" direct from Euston to Richmond. When the person he was speaking to mentioned that that was unlikely the response was that as it was all the same colour it must be the same line.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 29, 2016 21:19:45 GMT
I overheard someone on a HST into Paddington today talking about how to navigate through London. Their comments included that you could take "an orange train" direct from Euston to Richmond. When the person he was speaking to mentioned that that was unlikely the response was that as it was all the same colour it must be the same line. By that logic you could take "black line" direct from Kings Cross to Waterloo or, relevant to your traveller into Paddington, the "Green Line" from there to Richmond |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 29, 2016 21:36:33 GMT
I overheard someone on a HST into Paddington today talking about how to navigate through London. Their comments included that you could take "an orange train" direct from Euston to Richmond. When the person he was speaking to mentioned that that was unlikely the response was that as it was all the same colour it must be the same line. By that logic you could take "black line" direct from Kings Cross to Waterloo or, relevant to your traveller into Paddington, the "Green Line" from there to Richmond Indeed. Any line with more than one terminus at either end (or points in between) would therefore require different colours for each branch and a re-name. Seven lines (including Overground and DLR) would therefore require re-profiling and re-colouring. The map would look a shambles and even more daunting than the one-to-one Mastermind style grilling I got from Chris M during the on-site April Social quiz at Acton! |
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Post by Chris M on Apr 29, 2016 21:51:16 GMT
Well Paddington to Richmond direct is possible via the District, even if not regularly scheduled (as it is by mainline, if you're prepared to take a very circuitous route: Old Oak Common junction, Greenford East Curve, West Ealing, Acton Wells Junction, Mitre Bridge Junction, Kensington Olympia, Clapham Junction and Barnes). Kings Cross St. Pancras to Waterloo is not possible direct via the Underground (but St Pancras to Waterloo by National Rail could be done if desired).
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