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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 13:46:26 GMT
Please forgive the topic creep, but does anyone else think TfL have done a poor job with the on-train maps on the S stock? Leaving aside the fact that using the stick-on maps at all ignores 50 years of technological change - how hard would it have been to provide dynamic electronic maps? - the way they've done it is unnecessarily confusing for infrequent users.
It wouldn't be hard to produce a single linear map that included both District and H&C/Circle on the same bit of plastic. It's no more complicated than the Northern, really. Every day I see tourists avidly studying the wrong map and wondering why they can't work out where they are or whether they're on the right train.
And while I'm at it, why have two copies of the central London map above each door? Why not have one of those, and then a geographical map next to it showing main tourist attractions, so that tourists easily see (for example) how close Blackfriars and Mansion House are to St Paul's Cathedral. That insight alone would probably have a noticeable impact on crowding on the Bank-Monument link.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 14:01:19 GMT
Please forgive the topic creep, but does anyone else think TfL have done a poor job with the on-train maps on the S stock? Leaving aside the fact that using the stick-on maps at all ignores 50 years of technological change - how hard would it have been to provide dynamic electronic maps? - the way they've done it is unnecessarily confusing for infrequent users. I'm sure they tried this when the 92 stock was in its design stage but it never worked so the idea has never gone any further to the best of my knowledge. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 14:28:58 GMT
It wouldn't be hard to produce a single linear map that included both District and H&C/Circle on the same bit of plastic. It's no more complicated than the Northern, really. Every day I see tourists avidly studying the wrong map and wondering why they can't work out where they are or whether they're on the right train. TfL created a single map back in May 2010 but I don't think it was ever used. Please see link below. www.flickr.com/photos/94509615@N03/ |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 21, 2016 15:34:12 GMT
Please forgive the topic creep, but does anyone else think TfL have done a poor job with the on-train maps on the S stock? Leaving aside the fact that using the stick-on maps at all ignores 50 years of technological change - how hard would it have been to provide dynamic electronic maps? - the way they've done it is unnecessarily confusing for infrequent users. It wouldn't be hard to produce a single linear map that included both District and H&C/Circle on the same bit of plastic. It's no more complicated than the Northern, really. Every day I see tourists avidly studying the wrong map and wondering why they can't work out where they are or whether they're on the right train. And while I'm at it, why have two copies of the central London map above each door? Why not have one of those, and then a geographical map next to it showing main tourist attractions, so that tourists easily see (for example) how close Blackfriars and Mansion House are to St Paul's Cathedral. That insight alone would probably have a noticeable impact on crowding on the Bank-Monument link. How about the New York style of LCD display (R160) ?  a District Line version?  I'm sure they tried this when the 92 stock was in its design stage but it never worked so the idea has never gone any further to the best of my knowledge. this was proposed for '92 Stock, very rudimentary!  |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 21, 2016 15:36:42 GMT
Much more efficient usage of space, and less confusing too. If in-car maps on the 378s can all routes served on one map, why can't the S7s?. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 17:20:20 GMT
The Toronto subway has the same type of electronic maps as NYC.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 21, 2016 17:24:16 GMT
Much more efficient usage of space, and less confusing too. If in-car maps on the 378s can all routes served on one map, why can't the S7s?. Is that a genuine map? It looks a little like an enthusiast's own creation somehow. |
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Post by domh245 on Jan 21, 2016 17:43:07 GMT
It looks like it could be, it has a part number printed on it (28124/148), and the text has that fuzzy look to it that you get when you scan something, and don't usually get with image editing software.
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Post by tjw on Jan 21, 2016 17:43:33 GMT
Would the New York style of map / display be illegal under the disability access acts / regulations?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 18:26:52 GMT
Much more efficient usage of space, and less confusing too. If in-car maps on the 378s can all routes served on one map, why can't the S7s?. Is that a genuine map? It looks a little like an enthusiast's own creation somehow. Yes that is a genuine map that was created but was never used. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 21, 2016 19:14:55 GMT
Much more efficient usage of space, and less confusing too. If in-car maps on the 378s can all routes served on one map, why can't the S7s?. I agree - that single map is way better than having separate ones. That's rather elegant and does show the service structure pretty much correctly - guess you can quibble slightly about where Olympia trains run to in the east (I know it's a bit varied). I'd love to know what thinking led to its rejection. |
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Post by crusty54 on Jan 21, 2016 21:16:29 GMT
DCA were the design consultants so a real map.
Bearing in mind that 1 in 10 of the male population are colour blind the New York maps would be unreadable for many as the colour contrast would be poor.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 21, 2016 22:26:02 GMT
Much more efficient usage of space, and less confusing too. If in-car maps on the 378s can all routes served on one map, why can't the S7s?. I agree - that single map is way better than having separate ones. That's rather elegant and does show the service structure pretty much correctly - guess you can quibble slightly about where Olympia trains run to in the east (I know it's a bit varied). I'd love to know what thinking led to its rejection. It is also slightly misleading in suggesting Edqware Road to Richmond/Ealing is possible without changing, but it's no worse than the existing S7 diagrams in that respect |
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Post by wimblephil on Jan 21, 2016 22:40:43 GMT
It is also slightly misleading in suggesting Edqware Road to Richmond/Ealing is possible without changing, but it's no worse than the existing S7 diagrams in that respect Well technically that IS possible, and does happen on the odd occasion! They need to do away with the Hammersmith&City and Circle lines as separate routes. It's one line with two branches in essence! Remove that awful pink, stupid long name and horrible '& City' suffix. That'd neaten and clean things up quite nicely! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 22, 2016 12:06:43 GMT
They need to do away with the Hammersmith&City and Circle lines as separate routes. It's one line with two branches in essence! Remove that awful pink, stupid long name and horrible '& City' suffix. That'd neaten and clean things up quite nicely! Operationally it may be one line with two branches, but because one of those branches curls back round on itself it really does need to be shown separately. Anyway, it's only none line with two braches if you're looking at it from the Hammersmith end - from Barking the H&C looks to be a branch of the District! And from Bayswater the Circle looks like a branch of the District! It is a silly name (originally given to the Westbourne Park-Hammersmith section only, and thus equally applicable to the yellow line as to the pink line) but we are probably stuck with it. Suggestions at the time of the divorce from the Met (although in practice they had led separate lives for decades) included Regency and Premier, but neither was adopted. I would go the other way, actually, and have the District follow the Met's lead by showing the service pattern more clearly by having more than one colour - specifically the Edgware Road line. Whether we have a bicoloured Wimbledon branch or show all Wimbledon services in one colour (requiring the south side of the circle, like the north side, to be tricoloured), is an interesting question! |
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Rich32
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Post by Rich32 on Jan 23, 2016 6:53:22 GMT
It wouldn't be hard to produce a single linear map that included both District and H&C/Circle on the same bit of plastic. It's no more complicated than the Northern, really. Every day I see tourists avidly studying the wrong map and wondering why they can't work out where they are or whether they're on the right train. TfL created a single map back in May 2010 but I don't think it was ever used. Please see link below. www.flickr.com/photos/94509615@N03/It seems a pity they didn't opt to use it. Much better than the separate line diagrams used currently and surely more cost effective. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Jan 23, 2016 9:46:22 GMT
It seems a pity they didn't opt to use it. Much better than the separate line diagrams used currently and surely more cost effective. That makes perfect sense to me as well. It shows the relationships of the three lines much more convincingly. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 23, 2016 15:11:57 GMT
The situation with respect of on-train route maps on the S7 trains is just appalling. I've lost count of the number of times that passengers (especially tourists) become confused and even lost (from being on the wrong train) because they looked at the paper route maps without realising that there are two different maps - and they were looking at the wrong one!I feel sure that 1930's LPTB would not have made such a fundamental ghastly mistake. The map seen at the Flickr link is 99.5% better, the primary alteration I'd make is to show the Olympia service as being part-time by means of a dotted (or dashed) line that starts from its own black circle at Earls Court (ie: without a link to either HSK or Gloucester Rd). This way (hopefully) passengers will not be confused if an Olympia train is travelling on the main east-west route. It would not matter that the Olympia service is not seen as starting from HSK, it will not cause confusion as the train still passes through Earls Court - which is where most passengers who want Olympia join these trains. re: the Edgware Road service, maybe a different shade of green could be used between Edgware Road and Wimbledon, with the Wimbledon - Earls Court section being dual colour. This might be of benefit - certainly showing how the services actually work would add a little clarity - but I would see this as icing on the cake when the most essential aspect would be having the cake itself! re: real-time information, I too am amazed at how backwards our our S Stock trains (and other trains) are in this respect. Below are some images (from my website) showing solutions seen overseas - all our most recent trains should have included these as standard features. btw, because some people are colour blind so maybe blue could substitute for one of the colours... I feel sure that if there was a will solutions could be found which would benefit everyone! I took these images about a decade ago.  "Real-time" information display on a tram in Kassel, Germany. This uses coloured LED (light emitting diodes) to show:- * the route number (green LED's flash alternately) * the section of route which has been passed (red) * where you are "now" (flashing yellow) * and the section of the route which is yet to be traversed (green, for this journey only four stops remaining...)  Dublin Area Rapid Transit (DART) - green indicates the route which has already been travelled, orange the route expected to be followed, solid red the train's destination station and flashing red the next station. The above images date from circa 2005. So its not as if the technology is immature! --------------------------------------------------- For anyone who thinks that the single colour digital displays on the S Stock and Class 378 etc trains are *that* wonderful, then this short video which I filmed in 1993 might come as a surprise. This was filmed on the Montréal métro. Note the 'other' information, including weather forecast and adverts - in a London context this could also bear the name of sponsors. If advertising was the only way to fund such innovative information displays then I would accept it as being better than not having the displays! What is significant is not just the interchange information (buses, suburban trains) but also the coloured text. The one thing that in a London context would not be welcome is travel status information. I say this because in London it is ALWAYS "good" - no matter what the reality, so therefore providing such information would be of minimal benefit. ----------------------------------------- Something else which I'd like to see... this image from the Berlin S-Bahn demonstrates how to advise passengers which side the the train the doors open at the next station.  Simon |
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Post by uzairjubilee on Jan 23, 2016 16:26:47 GMT
It seems a pity they didn't opt to use it. Much better than the separate line diagrams used currently and surely more cost effective. That makes perfect sense to me as well. It shows the relationships of the three lines much more convincingly. Indeed. I'm actually surprised as to how good that map is. |
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Post by crusty54 on Jan 24, 2016 7:38:20 GMT
It seems a pity they didn't opt to use it. Much better than the separate line diagrams used currently and surely more cost effective. That makes perfect sense to me as well. It shows the relationships of the three lines much more convincingly. I suspect it wouldn't fit in the space available to be readable by someone standing in front of it (or sitting opposite). The current S7 diagrams are awful. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 24, 2016 8:21:48 GMT
I suspect it wouldn't fit in the space available to be readable by someone standing in front of it (or sitting opposite). The current S7 diagrams are awful. I certainly agree in the small end-of-car spaces, the other positions should be adequate. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 24, 2016 9:28:40 GMT
I suspect it wouldn't fit in the space available to be readable by someone standing in front of it (or sitting opposite). . I don't see why not - the length is determined by the number of stations between Ealing and Upminster. That is the same, whether you include the pink and yellow lines in the same diagram or not. |
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Post by rsdworker on Jan 24, 2016 15:17:49 GMT
WMATA has new trains - its features three info screens -
1: dot matrix screen with door arrows on sides
2: Info screen
3: route map
so those would be easily fitted in S stocks replacing paper maps (dot matrix screens are already in trains
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Post by crusty54 on Jan 24, 2016 18:34:20 GMT
I suspect it wouldn't fit in the space available to be readable by someone standing in front of it (or sitting opposite). . I don't see why not - the length is determined by the number of stations between Ealing and Upminster. That is the same, whether you include the pink and yellow lines in the same diagram or not. not quite so simple as you have to fit the flag boxes for the H&C interchanges along the top as well as the District line. The linked visual on here looks longer than the existing diagrams. If not the type size could be smaller and harder to read. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 24, 2016 19:11:10 GMT
you have to fit the flag boxes for the H&C interchanges along the top as well as the District line. Between Aldgate and Hammersmith there are eight flag boxes on each route. Cranking the Zone 3/4 boundary could allow some shortening at the left hand end |
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Post by superteacher on Jan 24, 2016 21:03:56 GMT
Totally agree with what others have said - the combined map is far better.
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Post by patrickb on Jan 24, 2016 22:53:43 GMT
Much more efficient usage of space, and less confusing too. If in-car maps on the 378s can all routes served on one map, why can't the S7s?. The Overground Diagrams are actually the map of the network stretched into a more 'linear' layout and are becoming to confusing to interpret. With future LO Lines potentially on the way, the diagram should be scrapped all together and broken down. The Lea Valley lines just about made it on the 378s Diagram last year, now look where Liverpool Street is! You could have a Linear Diagram each for the Goblin, Lea Valley and Watford DC Lines though the orbital part can be kept as a whole. The single S7 Diagram works because it's three lines each with their own colour identity and not a flurry of orange. |
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Post by jukes on Jan 24, 2016 23:29:51 GMT
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jan 25, 2016 8:38:34 GMT
The German and Irish ones look the best.
The NY one is absolutely awful.
But for a cheap approach the 'combined' version looks pretty reasonable.
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Post by wimblephil on Mar 14, 2016 20:06:21 GMT
Not strictly about the S7 stock, but to save starting a new thread...
I've noticed new in-car line diagrams appearing in D Stock, showing the new 'Zone 2/3' in East London. Is it actually worth the cost/effort to update these, since they only have a few months left in service? I'm not sure how much difference it will make to people using these stations? I've yet to see any appear in S-Stock yet...
On the topic of in car diagrams in general, how often are they likely to be updated? What are the costs involved? I'm surprised there's been no investment into digitising these displays. I would think in the long term, it would be cost-beneficial to do so...?
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