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Fares
Dec 9, 2015 16:04:35 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2015 16:04:35 GMT
Hi,
Why is there such a price difference between zone 1 and non zone 1 journeys. For example Covent Garden to Leicester Square (it's quicker to walk!) is £2.30, however a Z2-6 journey such as Epping to Headstone Lane (via Stratford and Willesden Junction) is a mere £1.50 off-peak.
What is the reason that Z2 only single off-peak fares are the same as Z2-6 fares?
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Dec 9, 2015 16:40:47 GMT
Post by camperdown9 on Dec 9, 2015 16:40:47 GMT
Train and plane ticket costs often don't make sense. A train ticket from where I live in Kent to St Albans is cheaper than a ticket to London. But to get to St Albans from here you need to go via London and change stations. So lots of people buy tickets to St Albans and only use them to get to and from London.
Emirates used to (may still do) charge more for a ticket to Dubai than they do for a ticket to India. And to get to India from the uk flying with Emirates you need to change planes at Dubai. British airways used to charge less from Paris to Rio via London than they did from London to Rio. Air France used to charge less from London via Paris to Rio than they did from Paris to Rio. In the airline world the airlines would say that to encourage people to fly indirect you had to lower the fare so that they were cheaper than the direct flights. Plus the airline have a nice little condition that states that you must use all sectors of the journey in order or the full itinerary can be cancelled. As airlines have to know who is flying on what aircraft this is fairly easy for them to manage this.
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Dec 9, 2015 16:56:25 GMT
Post by stapler on Dec 9, 2015 16:56:25 GMT
a729, isn't the aim just to keep people out of zone 1?
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Dec 9, 2015 18:02:15 GMT
Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 9, 2015 18:02:15 GMT
Hi, Why is there such a price difference between zone 1 and non zone 1 journeys. ? For he same reason there are cheap off peak tickets. The use made of the core activity (peak hour, Zone 1 etc) is what determines how many resources need to be thrown at the system, and prices are set accordingly. Journeys in, to and from Zone 1 are what the Tube was built for. It is also the most expensive to run (all those busy stations, deep level stations, complex interchanges etc) The marginal cost to TfL of a journey entirely outside Zone 1 is trivial, as the trains and stations would be there anyway to take people to or from Zone 1. So any income is good, and the tickets are presumably priced to obtain the maximum value for (price x number of optional travellers) |
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Dec 10, 2015 20:51:58 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2015 20:51:58 GMT
Funnily enough one huge incentive to avoid Zone One was removed recently, in a very stupid move, as the Zone Two to Six travelcard was axed - Boris'es worst mistake............
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Dec 11, 2015 3:36:24 GMT
Post by MoreToJack on Dec 11, 2015 3:36:24 GMT
Funnily enough one huge incentive to avoid Zone One was removed recently, in a very stupid move, as the Zone Two to Six travelcard was axed - Boris'es worst mistake............ ...but most people use Oyster, and the zone 2-6 cap (and all variations in between) still remains - so your point is basically moot. How many people fraudulently used a z2-6 to pass through (but not exit) anyway...? |
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Dec 11, 2015 6:23:01 GMT
via mobile
Post by crusty54 on Dec 11, 2015 6:23:01 GMT
Charge where most people travel but the stations also cost more to run.
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Dec 11, 2015 11:07:57 GMT
Post by peterc on Dec 11, 2015 11:07:57 GMT
When I used to use Waterloo the fact that it was worthwhile to have frequent full dress ticket inspections in the passage to the Jubilee Line suggests that it is, or at least was in the past, a significant issue.
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Dec 11, 2015 22:16:13 GMT
Post by snoggle on Dec 11, 2015 22:16:13 GMT
Funnily enough one huge incentive to avoid Zone One was removed recently, in a very stupid move, as the Zone Two to Six travelcard was axed - Boris'es worst mistake............ ...but most people use Oyster, and the zone 2-6 cap (and all variations in between) still remains - so your point is basically moot. How many people fraudulently used a z2-6 to pass through (but not exit) anyway...? Yes the caps are there but they are all priced at the same price as Zone 1 so there is no discount for avoiding Zone 1. This means people who do travel outside of Zone 1 are very unlikely to have their travel capped - especially if they travel beyond Zone 3. The extremely high usage of Oyster and CPCs is such that the risk of massive fare evasion from the use of a Z26 lower priced cap is low. There are pink validators and priced routes so people could do the right thing to lower their travel costs if there were lower priced non Z1 caps. If they didn't do so they'd be charged via Zone 1 and TfL aren't losing out. I rather suspect a proportion of people have NO idea about pink validators nor the implications on their wallet if they don't comply with TfL's routes for PAYG or extension travel or have non Z1 travelcards. I used a Z23 Travelcard for 2 years and had to go through all sorts of hoops to avoid paying for Zone 1. I only knew what to do because a key revenue person in LU took me through how it all works before I left LU's employ. I actually think a bit of creative thinking around daily caps / day travelcards is a better solution for a future Mayor wanting to improve value for money for public transport users rather than fare freezes or fare cuts. As we're talking about fares and travel costs have a look at this recent London Travelwatch report. Quite instructive to read how people make their travel choices and how much money they're forking out. www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/documents/get_lob?id=4100&field=file |
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Dec 12, 2015 16:25:27 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2015 16:25:27 GMT
...but most people use Oyster, and the zone 2-6 cap (and all variations in between) still remains - so your point is basically moot. How many people fraudulently used a z2-6 to pass through (but not exit) anyway...? Yes the caps are there but they are all priced at the same price as Zone 1 so there is no discount for avoiding Zone 1. This means people who do travel outside of Zone 1 are very unlikely to have their travel capped - especially if they travel beyond Zone 3. "No discount for avoiding Zone 1"? I suspect the majority of people using both trains and buses during a day will make just two train journeys, changing trains on the way (say Harrow & Wealdstone to Coulsdon South via Willesden Junction and Clapham Junction) and a bus or two at either end. The 4th bus ride (3rd on 2016 fares) gets you to the bus cap, and the two train journeys outside Zone 1 are considerably cheaper than via Zone 1, and a long way from the Zone 2-6 cap |
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Dec 12, 2015 17:04:55 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2015 17:04:55 GMT
Funnily enough one huge incentive to avoid Zone One was removed recently, in a very stupid move, as the Zone Two to Six travelcard was axed - Boris'es worst mistake............ Did you mean the Z2-6 daily oyster cap which was phased out in 2011? |
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Dec 12, 2015 17:23:10 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2015 17:23:10 GMT
Yes, in 2011, Boris made a F***ing stupid move in axeing the Z2-6 Oyster Day cap.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:53:04 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2015 22:53:04 GMT
Hi, Why is there such a price difference between zone 1 and non zone 1 journeys. ? For he same reason there are cheap off peak tickets. The use made of the core activity (peak hour, Zone 1 etc) is what determines how many resources need to be thrown at the system, and prices are set accordingly. Journeys in, to and from Zone 1 are what the Tube was built for. It is also the most expensive to run (all those busy stations, deep level stations, complex interchanges etc) The marginal cost to TfL of a journey entirely outside Zone 1 is trivial, as the trains and stations would be there anyway to take people to or from Zone 1. So any income is good, and the tickets are presumably priced to obtain the maximum value for (price x number of optional travellers) It is illogical that they counter-intuitively undercut the buses (e.g Whitechapel-Upminster off-peak is £1.50.However it would cost £4.40 by bus, as you could only complete that journey with a minimum of 3 buses-25,86 OR 128 then 248 OR 370) |
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Dec 16, 2015 1:11:20 GMT
Post by spsmiler on Dec 16, 2015 1:11:20 GMT
Yes, in 2011, Boris made a F***ing stupid move in axeing the Z2-6 Oyster Day cap. I dont remember a 2-6 cap! What I do remember were paper 2-6 and 2-9 ODTC tickets, which Boris killed off so that passengers had to pay for 1-6 and 1-9 caps - the 1-9 was 20p less than double the 2-9! Oh how happy I was NOT! I travel a lot less since those days. The fares caps are too high. Simon |
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Dec 16, 2015 21:35:04 GMT
Post by Tomcakes on Dec 16, 2015 21:35:04 GMT
For he same reason there are cheap off peak tickets. The use made of the core activity (peak hour, Zone 1 etc) is what determines how many resources need to be thrown at the system, and prices are set accordingly. Journeys in, to and from Zone 1 are what the Tube was built for. It is also the most expensive to run (all those busy stations, deep level stations, complex interchanges etc) The marginal cost to TfL of a journey entirely outside Zone 1 is trivial, as the trains and stations would be there anyway to take people to or from Zone 1. So any income is good, and the tickets are presumably priced to obtain the maximum value for (price x number of optional travellers) It is illogical that they counter-intuitively undercut the buses (e.g Whitechapel-Upminster off-peak is £1.50.However it would cost £4.40 by bus, as you could only complete that journey with a minimum of 3 buses-25,86 OR 128 then 248 OR 370) Is it really illogical? Would you want people clogging up the local buses with long distance journeys when the capacity exists on the tube? |
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Dec 17, 2015 0:09:31 GMT
Post by snoggle on Dec 17, 2015 0:09:31 GMT
Yes, in 2011, Boris made a F***ing stupid move in axeing the Z2-6 Oyster Day cap. I dont remember a 2-6 cap! What I do remember were paper 2-6 and 2-9 ODTC tickets, which Boris killed off so that passengers had to pay for 1-6 and 1-9 caps - the 1-9 was 20p less than double the 2-9! Oh how happy I was NOT! I travel a lot less since those days. The fares caps are too high. Simon There certainly were caps alongside the ODTC products. See MD698 as an attachment to this FOI request or look at the tables in this London Reconnections articleInterestingly there is no TfL Fares Briefing Paper for 2011 as TfL deny its existence in that FOI and when the Mayor eventually conceded that the briefing papers should be released to the London Assembly no one at City Hall could find the 2011 Fares Rev Briefing Paper. I struggle to believe there is not a copy of it somewhere - it's simply too important a document to "lose". I'd certainly like to see the analysis and justification TfL used for such a controversial and costly move. Look at the percentage increases in fares in the tables - up to 75% increases which is beyond any justification. |
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