Operation of peak hour only stations.

And this must be similar now with Heathrow T4 and Cannon Street. I don't know Alex, I'll see if I can find out what they do there.

Cannon street is staffed by an SS 24/7 - I should imagine the same is true of Heathrow T4 (on account they are 'section 12' stations).

Until recently, Roding Valley on the Central line was the only permanently non staffed station on the LUL network.

* = for those not in the know, 'section 12' relates to fire regulations for "sub surface" stations.

cannon street is looked after by tower hill (nightmare to book on of a night) and i dont know if its still the case but upminster bridge was a unstaffed station

Upminster Bridge, always has a Station Super during traffic hours to my knowledge. Even though the ticket office is sometimes closed. Well it's always closed now :/

Theres an Sa on the gateline during the rush hour, but thats about it.

Sadly, the contractors are in and doing damage to my station
Also to add, before Blake Hall closed back in 81 it was always manned. It was the most easy/boring job on the network!

Ah but it's not just staffing when it comes to running a railway - there is the maintenance too, for example - and that's where the really big costs are.

Track still has to be maintained (and initially, re-installed in the case of Ongar), stock has to be maintained, signalling equipment has to be maintained, stations and the equipment on them have to be maintained........I could go on.

Basically, you have to consider all the stuff that is there regardless of whether you run one train a day or 100 trains a day. That stuff will always be there, always costing the same amount to operate/maintain - staffing is a very minor issue in the grand scheme of things when it comes to the costs of running a railway.

The question is, can LUL run a service which will pay for all these 'standing costs'? Obviously the answer is a big fat no, otherwise they'd still run to Ongar!!

Going through old threads, from before I joined the forum, I came across this one.

When I joined LT in 1977 most stations were unmanned between close of traffic and opening of traffic. There were contractors of course and I believe that station supervisors would be arranged as and when required to cater for them.

Engineering staff did not book on with station supervisors as such although it was courteous to make oneself known especially when requiring to use the station staff mess room for which it was necessary to present a gas chit. Operating would claim the cost of metered gas from the relevant department's cost centre at least in theory.

Access to stations was via master keys, the signal department had a set of keys for every station, these being held in the supervisors offices at each signal depot. In those days other departments were co-located with signals and thus had access to the master keys. The signal report centre also had a set I believe and keys were held elsewhere as well.

Apparently if a lock was changed at a station fourteen keys were required to be cut to be issued to various authorised keyholders across the combine. In those days station key sets did not include keys to signal relay rooms, comms equipment rooms, the wiring side of switchrooms etc.

During day shifts engineering staff requiring access to equipment generally helped themselves without announcing their presence to any operating officials unless access was required to a booking office, supervisors office etc. This included chasing trains into tunnels to reach equipment where there was room to remain and work and then waiting for one to pass by before legging it back to the platform. I recall running cable in the siding tunnel at Elephant & Castle as late as 1980/1 between trains after the morning peak. The running SM wouldn't collar the lever for the starter but he placed a railman at the headwall to exhibit a danger signal to the motormen of approaching trains.

Off topic perhaps but related were the protection arrangements at the time.

Back in those days of course there were no line clear/ line safe procedures, only lookout men in the daytime, road block men at night and possession men from the P Way pool available day and night generally for jobs involving trains or the possibility thereof!

The lookout man got a trackwalk and two days rules training with an oral test on the third day at the P Way school at Neasden. The road block man was picked from the gang by its chargehand and had no formal training except the lookout man training which all new entrants to the signal department received. Hi-vi vests were only worn on day shifts although it was recommended to put them on towards the end of a night shift if the work might run into traffic hours especially in the autumn and winter months.

Working on the track at night in the open was generally a case of a supervisor having a chat with the signalman controlling the area. Working in tube and sub surface tunnels required the road block man to ring the answerphone at the electrical control room and indicate where work was going to take place. He like almost everyone else would travel to site by train and see the last trains and ballasts through the site then placing three detonators and a red lamp to protect the site and a shorting strip across the running rails for good measure replacing the home signal(s). During the work the P-way walker would pass by and collect the details of the working party and its expected time of finishing. The walker collected the details of all the working parties on his section and would call the ganger who would inform the electrical control room at the last recorded finishing time that the section was clear for the recharge of traction. Obviously work that overran didn't happen too often, usually only in emergencies, because it was a nightmare to interrupt the recharge of traction current!

One job I recall overrunning was the changeover which saw the first day of service of stage 1 Jubilee line. I was working on the signal locations between St. John's Wood and Baker Street and we were a little late finishing because of a problem though I can't recall what after all these years. We exited the tunnel to a platform with early Sunday morning commuters expecting to see the first train!

Things today are so different these days and the H&S brigade would have a fit but perhaps for those who don't understand the why's and wherefore's of engineering this may give a little insight because so much time is lost to make things as safe as is possible for today's workers.

There are so many compliances to meet these days before a single spanner can turn a nut, it is no wonder that things go wrong frequently but at least the workforce is well protected. The list of changes to the working environment, rules, regulations and procedures has been absolutely colossal and must be extremely daunting for anyone starting in engineering nowadays.

If you mean Epping to Ongar, only 3 trains ran from Ongar in the morning peak, and there were 4 or 5 arrivals in the evening peak. There was, I believe, an extra train from North Weald in the morning, formed by the last Ongar to Epping running back only as far as North Weald.

I also agree with the point about running the service down - it was a a common thing back in the 60's when BR deliberately run down services, so nobody used them. Then, naturally, receipts were low, and hey presto, there's a case for closure.

It's a shame that they didn't carry on with the all day service which resumed in 1990.

The Hainault - Woodford section now runs till midnight . . . it's not very busy, but it takes a long time for passenger habits to change.

Trains only run to Hainault depot at the ends of the peak, so what about all the other times?

There was a big turnout on Epping to Ongar's last day. Train was well turned out, and has a special headboard. I remember the driver was called Jim (name deleted) (he was signing autographs!), and he was based at Leytonstone. He said that they'd tried to take him off the turn, but he insisted on doing the final turn on the line. Don't know if anyone on here knows him, or whether he still drives on the Central?