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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2007 14:16:05 GMT
Does anyone know where harbour lights were first used at signals protecting diverging junctions? I have seen photos of Arnos Grove (PJ) where PJ2 has no less than three signal heads configured to behave like a splitting semaphore home signal - when was this type of configuration replaced with harbour lights?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Mar 29, 2007 15:24:42 GMT
I /think/ mid 1930s - I'm away from my pile of LPTB and LU notes at the moment so can't check the dates.
Harbour lights became widespread throughout the system by the early 50s with resignalling and simplification of multiple heads.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 29, 2007 17:41:57 GMT
A 'Point of Interest' article in the current UNDERGROUND NEWS (LURS house magazine) says: "References in previous issues and elsewhere have perpetuated the misheld belief that the slang term for a Junction Route Indicator are 'Harbour lights'. However, the real term is ARBOR lights.
To explain its origin, Arbor is the Latin term for 'branch'- your local tree surgeon is an arboriculturalist!"Well, thats taught me something!! Just thought I would remind you of this thread. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Mar 29, 2007 18:56:10 GMT
<still digging through heaps of paperwork>
Arbour lights were first used by the Southern at Waterloo in 1936.
Found a picture of Wembley Park with Arbour Lights in 1939 - from squinting at the diagram it looks as if arbour lights were used there.
So, my guess is: Wembley Park, 1932 resignalling.
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Post by motormanmet on Mar 29, 2007 22:43:16 GMT
First use of Arbour or Harbour lights on LT was almost certainly Finchley Rd - Wembley Pk resignalling of 1937-39 or the Northern line extensions of the same time. Repeaters and fog repeaters for junction signals continued to use separate heads for each route until 1948 (Harrow area was possibly last use?), and from then on miniature arbour light repeaters were used. Over the next few years into the 1950s, split signals were replaced with the minituare arbour lights.
The 1932 resignalling of Wembley Pk and the Stanmore branch was done to Met Rly 3-aspect MAS standards to meet the similar 1924-30 resignalling of Harrow to Watford, Ricky and Uxbridge. The lines between Harrow Sth Jn and Wembley were 4 tracked at this time also, and between Northwick Pk and Preston Rd (can't remember which line) exists a 3-aspect signal from this time, albeit with lower lens patched over (A552 sticks in my head, though havent driven a train over the line for some time so could be totally wrong!!). Stanmore to Wembley Pk and beyond was resignalled in 1937-39 and north of Wembley Pk to Harrow in 1948 (along with re-organisation of the fast and slow lines).
Underground Group resignalling schemes of the time (1932) used separate signal heads (or route indicators) for each route, namely the Hounslow line, Acton Town - Hammersmith (semaphore east of Acton) and the Cockfosters branch.
Not sure of first use of arbour lights in tunnel, possibly on the tunnel sections of lines resignalled from 1937-8 onwards where necessary, though as said, separate heads existed in many areas well into the 1950s.
Anyone like to guess the last split-head junction signal in use on LT? I'm not exactly sure but have an idea, but what do you think....?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Mar 30, 2007 0:43:37 GMT
Interesting, indeed.
I've seen a picture of Stanmore (Y) CTC panel, installed in 1932 (in Wembley Park 'box) with what looks like arbour lights on the diagram.
I'd still go for 1932, though I might be /utterly/ wrong. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2007 17:42:11 GMT
Worth having a look at the old Watford - Euston DC signalling - Hudd - this had a bizarre routing structure which looked complex.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Mar 31, 2007 0:02:33 GMT
Worth having a look at the old Watford - Euston DC signalling - Hudd - this had a bizarre routing structure which looked complex. No. Absolutely not. ;D New Lines signalling was SPEED based - hence the multiplicity of heads. However, there was 'weak' route inference by dint of the lens positioning. First and foremost was that this installation (as was Mirfield), was based on the speed a Motorman could take through a diverging route. Very complex, trying to combine speed and route signalling - I can vaguely remember seeing an individual signal head guide to the Motormen. The route was largely irrelevant, merely the speed. The vertical and horizontal separation of the aspects was a rather clumsy way of amalgamating 'route' and 'speed' signalling. Most NORAC and Pennsy speed signalling installations have all the aspects vertically aligned. New lines signalling was expressly designed not to use Arbour lights. Marker Lights perhaps (but that's a different story altogether)  |
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Post by mandgc on Mar 31, 2007 11:11:58 GMT
"Arbour Lights"
I think this is a fairly recently dreamed up expresssion - It was never mentioned at the time of the introduction of "Harbour" lights (possibly a Drivers nickname).
Metropolitan Railway 3 Aspect signalling . (1925 to 1933) No 'harbour lights' were used- all junction signals had separate heads -possibly terminal stations displayed Platform Numbers at the diverging point.
I'm almost sure they were first intoduced with the Hampton Court Junction to Waterloo resignalling in 1936 ( I think a detailed description was given of the principal in the Railway Gazette. )
LPTB was quick to use them with the 'New Works' signalling/ resignalling from 1938 . Arnos and Acton Town originally had separate heads to begin with - Acton's were particularly elaborate and Arnos originally had a row of three Calling on Discs at the South end.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2007 19:00:45 GMT
A kisok with splitting shunt route displays can be seen at the LTM Acton - I suspect it came from one of the Piccadilly Line sites.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Mar 31, 2007 20:43:01 GMT
A kisok with splitting shunt route displays can be seen at the LTM Acton - I suspect it came from one of the Piccadilly Line sites. That's not three route indicators - It's a Train Number Unit used at the exit from sidings. (Not sure where though). I managed to open it up (before opening hours) a couple of years back and IIRC the relays controlling it referred to hundreds, tens and units. |
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Post by Tom on Mar 31, 2007 20:44:42 GMT
Anyone like to guess the last split-head junction signal in use on LT? I'm not exactly sure but have an idea, but what do you think....? The one I have in mind wasn't from LT days but it is now operated by LT's successor. |
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Post by motormanmet on Mar 31, 2007 21:56:56 GMT
I have a photo of wembley Park north end dating from 1937 showing a single car unit for the Stanmore service entering one of the middle platforms. In the
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Post by motormanmet on Mar 31, 2007 22:11:18 GMT
Sorry, message got sent before i finished!
In the background by the signalbox can be seen a starting signal with 2 3-aspect heads (IIRC one for Stanmore line via the flat junction before the flyover was built, and one for main line) plus a subsidary 2-aspect signal for the siding, so can confirm no harbour lights were in use until 1937-39 resignalling.
I go along with the first use being the SR Waterloo lines of 1936, this being quoted in books on signalling. LT used practically the same equipment supplied by Westinghouse from 1937 on, down to the route indicators using 3 lunar white lights.
Can confirm Met practice (and most of Underground Group/LT up to late-30s) at terminal stations was to use a route indicator displaying platform numbers at the last signal, being of the optical stencil projector type.
Also have an interesting pair of b/w photos of Hounslow West 'home' signal WX2, one showing the 2-aspect signal installed in 1926 with a stencil route indicator and the other after it had been replaced by 'harbour lights'.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2007 2:08:45 GMT
Also have an interesting pair of b/w photos of Hounslow West 'home' signal WX2, one showing the 2-aspect signal installed in 1926 with a stencil route indicator and the other after it had been replaced by 'harbour lights'. That would be very interesting to see if you can possibly scan them in? |
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Post by motormanmet on Apr 1, 2007 18:20:48 GMT
Will try to scan in my photos relating to the topics in this thread under a new thread - need to dig 'em out though so watch this space over the next week, should be worth the wait!
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 2, 2007 0:00:07 GMT
<very interested>
The pictures I've seen of Stanmore (Y) CTC console seem to date from the resignalling of Wembley Park in 1932 - the diagram shews what appears to be arbour lights at Canons Park (i.e. there are no separate heads there) *attempts to find url and fails*.
For what it's worth I think the Southern pinched the idea of arbour lights /off/ the LPTB. It would be pleasant to prove that either way. ;D ;D
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Post by mandgc on Apr 2, 2007 6:09:17 GMT
Metropolitan Signalling.
At Watford in 1925 the running signals entering the platforms were two Semaphore Arms- the only ones in use in this installation. A Short Range CL signal underneath gave acccess to the sidings. There did not appear to be any Callling On Sigs. provided. At Stanmore it appears that the platform indication was given by some sort of stencil- the Yellow indication of the 3 asp. signal was not used to lead to a dead end. When a local Signal Box was provided at Stanmore in 1938 the'harbour lights' were used to show the platform though with TWO position signals ( This was then the standard LPTB practice) New Calling On discs were added at the same time.
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Post by motormanmet on Apr 2, 2007 17:44:05 GMT
- The pictures I've seen of Stanmore (Y) CTC console seem to date from the resignalling of Wembley Park in 1932 - the diagram shews what appears to be arbour lights at Canons Park (i.e. there are no separate heads there) *attempts to find url and fails*.- Un fortunately, what is shown on the panel diagram doesn't always equate to what's out on the track...  ( Dug out my pics, found lots of interesting things like early fogs, district semaphores, lots of stuff from the 20s and 30s not normally seen, all from the LT archive! Will scan in and post asap! |
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Post by mandgc on Apr 4, 2007 5:48:19 GMT
Stanmore-
Further to my Reply # 17, The Railway Engineer magazine in describing the new signalling says "The Down [NB] Home signal 2R is a long range signal,with only two aspects of Red and Yellow and a three numeral projector type of optical route indicator" and "for setting back off the Up [SB] line near the slip points is Disc 4R with a three-numeral stencil-type route-indicator under the disc.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 4, 2007 16:04:41 GMT
Stanmore- Further to my Reply # 17, The Railway Engineer magazine in describing the new signalling says "The Down [NB] Home signal 2R is a long range signal,with only two aspects of Red and Yellow Aha! ;D Normally I don't trust diagram evidence alone, but in this case I couldn't easily find my contemporary paperwork. |
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Post by Harsig on Apr 4, 2007 16:29:56 GMT
Stanmore- Further to my Reply # 17, The Railway Engineer magazine in describing the new signalling says "The Down [NB] Home signal 2R is a long range signal,with only two aspects of Red and Yellow and a three numeral projector type of optical route indicator" and "for setting back off the Up [SB] line near the slip points is Disc 4R with a three-numeral stencil-type route-indicator under the disc. And here are a couple of images of these signals scanned from a copy of this very article  |
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Post by mandgc on Apr 5, 2007 10:18:50 GMT
Thanks,Harsig - these two pictures seem to have been lost from my treasures when I had a 'thinning out' session . :-)
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