|
|
Post by stapler on Nov 10, 2015 21:56:50 GMT
Whilst in car 92256 today, I noticed that the ventilation and heater grilles behind the seats had been turned over, such that the reinforcing bars were visible. In the case of this car, the grilles were filthy from 20 years of dust and grease, which came of when anyone put anything (papers, scarves, hands) on them. The next car was the same.
Why has this been done, and why haven't they been cleaned properly?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2015 22:52:12 GMT
I think you may be confused with the new type of vent they are fitting to the 92ts. I have no idea why as it just blows air towards the wall and window and makes the wall realy dirty looking instead of just straight up like the old ones.
|
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Nov 11, 2015 8:19:30 GMT
Well, there was so much filth (both on wall and grille) on that one as to look really old, not a new fitment!
I'm accustomed to put my arm round the stapleress's shoulders if we're sitting together on a 92. I shall hav eto remember to desist, to avoid dry-cleaning bills.
|
|
DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,487
|
Post by DWS on Nov 11, 2015 12:40:26 GMT
Whilst in car 92256 today, I noticed that the ventilation and heater grilles behind the seats had been turned over, such that the reinforcing bars were visible. In the case of this car, the grilles were filthy from 20 years of dust and grease, which came of when anyone put anything (papers, scarves, hands) on them. The next car was the same.
Why has this been done, and why haven't they been cleaned properly? Have you tried sending your dry clean bills to London Underground or even complaining to them about the dirt on the trains you have the car number so the more times you complain they may do something about. |
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Nov 11, 2015 12:58:51 GMT
DWS, not yet, but I may try it!
|
|
|
|
Post by jamesb on Nov 15, 2015 11:24:01 GMT
The top of these new ventilation covers do seem more prone to get very dirty/greasy more quickly.....
|
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Nov 15, 2015 16:17:58 GMT
Jamesb, are they actually new ones, or just the old ones turned over?
|
|
|
|
Post by crusty54 on Nov 15, 2015 17:42:02 GMT
They do look as if they've been flipped. Presumably this maintains the airflow when a bag is put on top. They do look filthy.
Presumably a cleaner has to do this not the flipper.
|
|
|
|
Post by jamesb on Nov 17, 2015 20:16:53 GMT
Surely they wouldnt just turn them upside down? I have no idea if they are new or not, they just looked different.
|
|
|
|
Post by plasmid on Nov 24, 2015 23:01:55 GMT
I'm afraid this needs to be taken more seriously and I will be reporting this to TFL. I was on a 92ts train yesterday, standing in front of the grille. It started making a choking noise, sort as if it was trying to start...and then poof! A cloud of black smoke/dust/brake dust etc. came out and covered the 3 people sitting in front of it! Whilst I found it hilarious at first, I then spent the rest of the day coughing as I obviously inhaled it.
|
|
|
|
Post by jamesb on Nov 25, 2015 20:23:44 GMT
I think that the grills are a new design (not just turned upside down). The problem is that if they allow more air to blow through, they will also suck up more dirt from outside the train I guess...Or only part of the ventilation system was replaced, i.e. the grill, leaving the dirtier pieces of the system down below. But if they have a tighter filter (somewhere in the system), won't the filter just get clogged up with dirt and stop the air from blowing through?
What was wrong with a good old fashioned window that could be opened?!
|
|
|
|
Post by John Tuthill on Nov 25, 2015 20:31:35 GMT
I think that the grills are a new design (not just turned upside down). The problem is that if they allow more air to blow through, they will also suck up more dirt from outside the train I guess...Or only part of the ventilation system was replaced, i.e. the grill, leaving the dirtier pieces of the system down below. But if they have a tighter filter (somewhere in the system), won't the filter just get clogged up with dirt and stop the air from blowing through? What was wrong with a good old fashioned window that could be opened?!Tfl would say: "Are you mad? We can't have customers making intelligent suggestions. What next? Slam doors?"  |
|
|
|
Post by jamesb on Nov 25, 2015 20:45:02 GMT
it's true! a window is cheap, doesn't get clogged up with dust, doesn't need maintenance, does the job?!
|
|
DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,487
|
Post by DWS on Nov 25, 2015 20:48:57 GMT
it's true! a window is cheap, doesn't get clogged up with dust, doesn't need maintenance, does the job?! How is retrofitting opening windows to 1992 tube stock going to be cheap ? Plus the dirt will sill come in the Windows . |
|
|
|
Post by jamesb on Nov 25, 2015 20:58:37 GMT
it's true! a window is cheap, doesn't get clogged up with dust, doesn't need maintenance, does the job?! How is retrofitting opening windows to 1992 tube stock going to be cheap ? Plus the dirt will sill come in the Windows . Thats true, retrofitting wouldn't be cheap, but I was just talking about general designs... Simple but effective. The 'forced ventilation' with fans circulating the air around is supposed to be more effective, but sometimes I wonder if it actually is. And the grills with a slider for open / closed above the seats never seem to do anything, when I put my hand over them, I can't feel any movement of air in or out... Just to be clear, I am not suggesting retrofitting the trains with opening windows, but, thinking back to the old trains with windows, I'm not sure if the new ones are that much cooler? |
|
|
|
Post by will on Nov 25, 2015 21:53:26 GMT
Which lines have forced ventilation (apart from S stock)?
Central does 1992 - obviously
Jubilee 1996 does
Northern 1995 does
Victoria 2009 does
Does the Waterloo & City use the same system as the Central Line and is the Victoria Line system the most effective as its usually nice and cool. Personally I find the Jubilee and Northern can be quite hot even with the vents open.
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Nov 25, 2015 22:34:00 GMT
W&C has the same trains as the Central.
In summer, the forced air on the Central fights a losing battle as the big train windows induce a greenhouse effect when the sun shines through them on the above ground sections. They have, however, fitted tinted windows to minimise this.
The D stock had forced air ventilation from new, but was so ineffective that the trains had to be retrofitted with opening windows.
Not sure if the 73 stock had it from new.
The 1972 stock was retrofitted with it.
|
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Nov 26, 2015 0:27:14 GMT
The D78s were quite horrible in summer when new. Whoever designed that "ventilation" system couldn't have had 0 Level physics!
|
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Nov 26, 2015 2:34:48 GMT
Which lines have forced ventilation (apart from S stock)? Central does 1992 - obviously Jubilee 1996 does Northern 1995 does Victoria 2009 does Does the Waterloo & City use the same system as the Central Line and is the Victoria Line system the most effective as its usually nice and cool. Personally I find the Jubilee and Northern can be quite hot even with the vents open. If you're referring to the sliders above the seats, on 95 stock (and presumably 96 stock) these don't do anything at all, and are dummy fixtures. Never been able to get an explanation as to why the trains were designed this way. I'm unsure whether the 92 stock is the same. I've always been sceptical about the forced ventilation on the 95 stock. My view is it makes a lot of noise for minimal gain, although to be fair in the hottest conditions you can notice the difference on a train where it's not operating. Some drivers switch it off in mild weather, and particularly in the evenings this gives a very noticeably quieter and more peaceful journey. It's also surprising how much tunnel dust these draw into the cars. This might be rose-tinted spectacles, however I always remember the 59 and 62 stocks being fairly good in hot weather, as the opening windows produced a good breeze through the cars. On a 95 stock, basically the rail/tunnel noise through open windows is replaced by noise from the fans running, with at least as much dust entering the car. Of course, probably the biggest contributor to excess heat is that generated by braking, especially the rheostatic brake. Notice how much cooler the Victoria Line is now regenerative braking is in use, compared either to 67 stock or the 09 stock in their early days. To be fair, work has been done to enhance the tunnel ventilation system as well, but the commissioning of regenerative braking cooled the Victoria Line almost overnight. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2015 14:54:30 GMT
Of course, probably the biggest contributor to excess heat is that generated by braking, especially the rheostatic brake. Notice how much cooler the Victoria Line is now regenerative braking is in use, compared either to 67 stock or the 09 stock in their early days. To be fair, work has been done to enhance the tunnel ventilation system as well, but the commissioning of regenerative braking cooled the Victoria Line almost overnight. It wasn't the Rheo that created the dust the Rheo just used the motors to slow the train down and was recognised by the whining especially on 67/72/C stocks. The dust is created by the mechanical braking EP and Westinghouse. |
|
|
|
Post by jamesb on Dec 14, 2015 5:23:30 GMT
The dirt problem seems to be getting more widespread to me, with a visible layer of 'soot' appearing on the lower window frame and over the grille. It makes me wonder how many particles get blown into the carriage - I don't particularly want to breath that in on every journey! There needs to be some sort of filter - although that in itself would probably need regular changing.
I wonder if this isn't a new problem - just the direction that the air points now means that it gathers on the window frame rather then getting blown upwards.
I now get the urge to wipe my finger over ever grille, rather like hyacinth bucket! Perhaps I should carry a duster and bottle of pledge on every journey.
|
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Dec 14, 2015 10:06:51 GMT
jamesb, you are quite right. The reversed grilles (if that's what they are - has that been confirmed?) not being flush, are dirt traps. The other day, in almost horizontal bright sunlight, I could actually see the specks of dirt circulating in the convection currents.
Come on, LU, you can sort this!
|
|
|
|
Post by caravelle on Dec 14, 2015 19:21:47 GMT
If what you're speaking about is true, then a coarse metal filter (meaning: lots of holes in a metal plate) and perhaps some of this Viledon filters - sold by the roll, easily cut - might be in order for a test run. The downside is the scheduled maintenance to change/assess the filtration medium. |
|
|
|
Post by jamesb on Dec 14, 2015 22:28:17 GMT
If what you're speaking about is true, then a coarse metal filter (meaning: lots of holes in a metal plate) and perhaps some of this Viledon filters - sold by the roll, easily cut - might be in order for a test run. The downside is the scheduled maintenance to change/assess the filtration medium. Perfect solution. Job done! I imagine the cheaper solution is the cleaners with a duster every night to 'brush it under the carpet' as it were |
|
|
|
Post by caravelle on Dec 14, 2015 23:29:21 GMT
Well you see, it will never quite disappear.
The little I know about this is that most of that black dust amounts to, well... dust, dead skin cells, lint, brake dust and so on, so this is an ongoing problem. You can change the technology and dispense with things like brake dust in 50-75 years but the other constituents will be there. The experience of blowing your nose after being in deep level stations is quite telling.
On the other hand people are always complaining that the vents "don't do nutting", see some post(s) above.
So all in all the better draughty vents are victims of their own success. Some sort of Labrinth trap can be devised to catch/reject most of the dust but you'll always have some, which can be filtered by that viledon filter, or equivalent - if the particles are big enough you can even use some layers of gauze or washable thin metal net.
On the other hand, some people think that a hip-hop artist is not the better answer to dust, but I digress.  |
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Dec 15, 2015 8:30:42 GMT
Whatever the science, the existence of the vertical bars on the surface of the (?reversed?) grilles means that any kind of dusting will take much longer
|
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Dec 21, 2015 17:26:30 GMT
Stranger and stranger -- the four 92s I've travelled on in the last couple of days have had their grilles restored from "inside out" to right way up.........
|
|
|
|
Post by astockfan101 on Dec 21, 2015 18:36:10 GMT
What I find odd about the 92 stock is that they have space for opening side windows but don't have any, to make them have opening side windows you could for say tfl put a opening bit in the Curving bit of the window like the end doors have on them.
|
|
|
|
Post by plasmid on Dec 21, 2015 23:42:00 GMT
There must be a solution, whatever they are doing on the Victoria line obviously works as dust doesn't come through those air blowers.
|
|
