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Post by stapler on Oct 25, 2015 15:35:11 GMT
Was on Mile End WB this morning, when the panel train describer, and audio announcement, heralded an Hammersmith and City train via KX. When it arrived, it was a D stock formation. Wanting Westminster, I stood back, even though I knew D stock does not work the H&C. But just as it drew out, I realised it was a Hammersmith via Victoria train, an Ealing one turned short at H'smith because of planned works on that branch. This was reinforced (?) by its rear indicator reading Richmond. Confusion and frustration all round! Can't the system detect a Hammersmith terminator without assuming it's going via the H&C? Being Mile End, of course, I couldn't see the overhead describer ]
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2015 15:54:47 GMT
Hammersmith is not a valid TD they have to put it up as something but generally if it was a District train it would have some sort of District description obviously though not on this occasion.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 25, 2015 16:11:57 GMT
Hammersmith is not a valid TD they have to put it up as something but generally if it was a District train it would have some sort of District description obviously though not on this occasion. At least, as it was a D stock, there was at least a possibility for those quick on the uptake to spot it. When the whole SSR is S stock there will be nothing to tell you which way the train is going to Hammersmith. I'm surprised that, even if the signalling system could mistake its route, surely the train itself isn't set up to display "Hammersmith". I wonder what the onboard announcements were saying? All over the SSL network, passengers used to instantly recognising their train from its shape are having to relearn a skill last needed sixty years ago, (when most of the network was operated by O,P,Q and R stock, all the same shape and all painted red) - reading the destination boards.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2015 16:51:09 GMT
It will still say on the front Hammersmith and City Line or District Line but I agree not good if your not good with the underground.
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Post by stapler on Oct 25, 2015 21:46:45 GMT
There was a lot of noise on the platform, with 2 central lines and the Hammersmith all arriving at the same time. I heard only ".....line train to Hammersmith" of the on-train announcement. Had I not had the stapleress with me, I'd have given it a try (being well used to Epping trains that are mysteriously diverted to Hainault en route) but she is very much of the "if it's not going where we want to go, don't get on it" mould! NF, the dot matrix on the front of the D78 read simply "Hammersmith". No via as no room, and the the D78 indicators don't scroll, do they?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2015 22:26:29 GMT
Sorry I was referring to a S stock in my previous post.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 25, 2015 23:38:26 GMT
NF, the dot matrix on the front of the D78 read simply "Hammersmith". That's what surprised me - that D78s displays had "Hammersmith" in the menu at all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2015 23:39:44 GMT
I'm sure I read somewhere on here that the D78s can display any station on the District line apart from Notting Hill Gate to Edgware Road for obvious reasons. Operation find a source for this statement has failed, however ...
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Post by superteacher on Oct 25, 2015 23:44:52 GMT
I find it odd that they would reverse a District line train at Hammersmith. If it was a late running Richmond, Parsons Green is a more obvious choice.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 26, 2015 0:33:03 GMT
I find it odd that they would reverse a District line train at Hammersmith. If it was a late running Richmond, Parsons Green is a more obvious choice. No service to Ealing Broadway today (Sunday) because of the work on Hanger Lane Junction - I understand some Ealing services were being reversed at Hammersmith.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 26, 2015 2:06:32 GMT
That's what surprised me - that D78s displays had "Hammersmith" in the menu at all. I'm sure I read somewhere on here that the D78s can display any station on the District line apart from Notting Hill Gate to Edgware Road for obvious reasons. Operation find a source for this statement has failed, however ... I can confirm that D stock can indeed show any station as a destination.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 26, 2015 5:59:43 GMT
No service to Ealing Broadway today (Sunday) because of the work on Hanger Lane Junction - I understand some Ealing services were being reversed at Hammersmith. There are no scheduled Hammersmith WB trains during the works, the only way to 'reverse' there is to first go into the WB Piccadilly platform, then access the centre siding, with then no access to the EB District, or go across into the EB Piccadilly platform from Barons Court There are scheduled Gunnersbury trains during the temporary timetable until 1 November.
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Post by superteacher on Oct 26, 2015 8:04:44 GMT
No service to Ealing Broadway today (Sunday) because of the work on Hanger Lane Junction - I understand some Ealing services were being reversed at Hammersmith. There are no scheduled Hammersmith WB trains during the works, the only way to 'reverse' there is to first go into the WB Piccadilly platform, then access the centre siding, with then no access to the EB District, or go across into the EB Piccadilly platform from Barons Court There are scheduled Gunnersbury trains during the temporary timetable until 1 November. That makes me think that the train in question was displaying an incorrect destination, particularly as it was showing Richmond at the rear. Reversing at Hammersmith sounds complicated, and would disrupt the Piccadilly line. One of those moves you would only use in dire circumstances!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 5:32:49 GMT
So, to expand on what's already been said about how you reverse at Hammersmith. Please see this picture from my blog for a diagram of the location. The first thing you can do is take the route onto the westbound fast (that's the westbound Piccadilly line) at Barons Court. Signal WD43, the station starter at Barons Court westbound District line, will clear with three white lights at 45 degrees and you'll go over the crossover immediately outside the station, and along the fast into platform 2. From here, colour light signal WD11 clears a train back east into the Barons Court siding over the crossover. This is the wrong-road starter at Hammersmith platform 2 and you'll go left, over the crossover immediately outside the station and into the siding. From here, Piccadilly line trains can be cleared into the eastbound platform at Barons Court by colour light signal WD13 A. District line trains, however, must not proceed past this signal, since, just outside Barons Court, there's the tube-sized tunnel. This is a bit on the small side for D stock and S stock. Instead, a District line driver will change ends and head into the eastbound fast platform at Hammersmith. The train will head right, over the crossover, and into platform 3. Obviously Piccadilly line trains can do this, too, and it's also possible to go into platform 2 (westbound fast platform) from the siding. There's a colour light signal WD30 A which has a route indicator for both platform 2 and platform 3, but there's also a shunt signal WD30 B whose function I don't understand. At the Barons Court end of the siding, there is also a shunt signal WD13 B, which may, I suppose, be for a move into the westbound Piccadilly line platform at Barons Court. Anyway, from platform 3, you can gain the eastbound District line by changing ends and heading left, over the Crossover. Signal WD10 A - the station starter at Hammersmith eastbound fast - will clear with three white lights to the left. District line trains must only accept this route and must not accept the straight route, along the eastbound fast. This is because that will lead you on towards the very small tunnel outside Barons Court. So, in other words, you'll go from the westbound local platform at Barons Court onto the westbound fast and into the westbound fast platform at Hammersmith. Here, you'll change ends. You'll then go east into the siding and change ends again. You'll then go west into the eastbound fast platform (the eastbound local (District line) platform is not accessible from the siding, which is what Dstock7080 meant earlier) and change ends again. You'll then go onto the eastbound local via the crossover and back to Barons Court. This is a colossal faff, but it could be done in circumstances which weren't completely dire. The simpler way is to go right and then right again, over both crossovers, outside Barons Court. So, from Barons Court westbound local platform, you'll be cleared by WD43 into the siding (WD43 will clear with three white lights horizontally). From there, you can go straight into the eastbound fast platform (WD30 A will clear with three white lights to the right). Here you change ends and head left over the crossover onto the eastbound local and back to Barons Court. It is no surprise to me that there are no trains booked to do this during the works, because you're quite right superteacher it is involved and it means crossing the westbound Picc and then occupying the eastbound Picc's platform at Hammersmith while you change ends. Certainly this can be expected to disrupt the Picc a fair bit. However, remember that over the weekend the Picc was running a reduced service as well, so it may have been a more practical move then, with fewer trains in the area to hold up. Also, if Gunnersbury is being used for scheduled reversing and the Richmond branch is already coping with more trains than usual, it may not have been convenient to reverse a late-running train on the Richmond branch itself. Other options are Olympia (though not if the shuttle was operating) and, as you suggest, Parsons Green. However, with a reduced service operating between Earl's Court and Turnham Green - and with Hammersmith being a reasonably common destination - Hammersmith may have become quite attractive as a place to recover time. You might well be right, it may have been put up as a Hammersmith train in error; but I'm not as certain. If there was a big enough gap between Piccadilly line trains, I think it would have been quite a good choice of location. One of the nice things, of course, is that the reversing train can wait in the siding for its window, without holding up anything else. Obviously, with the Piccadilly line service more or less back to normal for weekdays, it won't be a very good option during the week.
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Post by metman on Oct 27, 2015 7:06:52 GMT
Yes a right old faf! It would probably be better to detrain at Barons Court and run empty into the siding. This would provide a layover time before running into the (Piccadilly) eastbound platform at Hammersmith to reverse and re-enter service.
I can see why either approaches would not be favoured!
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Post by superteacher on Oct 27, 2015 9:01:04 GMT
I can just imagine the Picc line controller screaming down the phone . . .
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 27, 2015 10:34:44 GMT
Can't Piccadilly trains use platform 4 at Hammersmith? This would allow a District to sit in platform 3 as long as necessary to change ends, without holding up the little trains.
Is the move through the siding cleared for trains in passenger service?
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Post by superteacher on Oct 27, 2015 10:50:28 GMT
Can't Piccadilly trains use platform 4 at Hammersmith? This would allow a District to sit in platform 3 as long as necessary to change ends, without holding up the little trains. Is the move through the siding cleared for trains in passenger service? They can use platform 4' but only if they have been running along the District line track from Acton Town. There are no crossovers west of Hammersmith. The move through Barons Court siding is cleared for passengers.
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Post by stapler on Oct 27, 2015 16:48:04 GMT
It'd be nice to hear from someone who was on that train (about 0945) as to what actually did happen west of Baron's Court! Mind you, most of them would have got off at Tower Hill thinking it was an H&C.
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Post by superteacher on Oct 27, 2015 17:30:29 GMT
It'd be nice to hear from someone who was on that train (about 0945) as to what actually did happen west of Baron's Court! Mind you, most of them would have got off at Tower Hill thinking it was an H&C. I would have stayed on just to find out! Mind you, I'm not the average passenger . . .
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