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Post by snoggle on Feb 7, 2017 16:44:07 GMT
More from NR via Rail magazine. Looks like a right royal c*ck up. Full Network Rail press release. PR link |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 7, 2017 19:25:31 GMT
I thought that planned track layout changes on the Great Eastern Main Line will eventually make it impossible for freight trains from Thameside to reach the North London Line at Stratford. In effect this will force the traffic to travel via the Goblin route! IIRC there are freight paths retained during off peaks through Stratford - one reason why the Crossrail off peak service is no more frequent than today although TfL are trying to get more paths. I don't know if their track access application has been granted. I'd be surprised if the freight operators just "gave up" historic rights to paths given there is no increase in freight paths on the GOBLIN in the short term. Also TfL have not yet secured increased peak train paths on the NLL - possibly because it's unclear if there is spare capacity west of Willesden Junction towards Richmond or Clapham Junction. As ever happy to be corrected if I am out of date and things have moved on. Snoggle, everyone, the text below comes from page 9 of this thread. Simon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Considering how traffic has built up I can see that a four month shut down is a bit of a PR own goal. Forgetting the technicalities and economics of the issue for a moment I am sure that the general public's preference would be to just add some extra coaches to the existing trains to deal with overcrowding. No need to worry about freight then, the road hauliers will keep it after a shutdown like that. |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 7, 2017 19:30:15 GMT
More from NR via Rail magazine. Looks like a right royal c*ck up. Hmm, I have a question. Who remembers the discussion about the type of train that would be used when the line reopens, with some people asking why the diesels would be returning to a railway line that has just been electrified? Perhaps its just as well that the diesels were retained! Simon (I removed the tweet from my message as we can see it earlier on this page) |
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 7, 2017 20:41:10 GMT
Odd that a further blockade is needed, rather than just weekend closures. Perhaps the southern electrification teams (inc GWR) need to learn from their counterparts up north; the Chat Moss line wasn't closed for eight months when it was wired - and it's built across a bog!
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Post by Chris M on Feb 7, 2017 21:06:26 GMT
I wonder if the talk of a further "full line closure" is to manage expectations and so they can announce, when the plan is finalised, that they will do so without any further blockades so as to put a bit of positive into that release.
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Post by rail2210 on Feb 7, 2017 21:07:42 GMT
Is it known if there has been any work on platform extensions or other track work, or will that now be completed later in the year?
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Post by domh245 on Feb 7, 2017 21:11:57 GMT
Odd that a further blockade is needed, rather than just weekend closures. Perhaps the southern electrification teams (inc GWR) need to learn from their counterparts up north; the Chat Moss line wasn't closed for eight months when it was wired - and it's built across a bog! Very odd indeed. The way the press release is phrased leads me to believe that all of the big civils tasks (track lowering, bridge raising etc) have been completed and that they just need to put up more masts - which isn't something that I'd have thought would need line blockades - overnight closures and weekend works would seem to be more appropriate. |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 7, 2017 21:20:22 GMT
Is it known if there been any work on platform extensions or other track work, or will that now be completed later in the year? The press release says a lot of track lowering and bridge replacement work has been done. To be fair that is accurate because it has been done. There is an issue with the bridge at Crouch Hill station that will have to be raised at a later date. Apparently that has been an issue for a long while in terms of whether it had to be raised or not. There will be a waiver to allow electric trains to run. There will be an issue though when it comes to replacing that bridge given the vastly busy W7 bus runs over it and it carries thousands of people from Muswell Hill and Crouch End to Finsbury Park every day. A quick look at Streetview suggests there is a reasonable diversion that skirts round the closure but whether the residents will allow it is another thing altogether. It looks like WW Queens Road has got new longer and lower platforms but only just long enough for 4 cars. The old platform ends are noticeably higher. Nothing has been done at Blackhorse Road to extend the platforms so far. Impossible to tell at the stns on viaducts because you simply can't see what's going on. I've not been to Crouch Hill / Upper Holloway / Gospel Oak so can't comment on those. If platform works haven't been done it's not exactly a crisis because it'll be a year before longer trains run and we know that platform extension work can be done in engineering hours with the odd weekend closure chucked in. TfL had separately contracted the platform extension works anyway so not for Network Rail to be bothered about at this stage. |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 7, 2017 21:29:43 GMT
I wonder if the talk of a further "full line closure" is to manage expectations and so they can announce, when the plan is finalised, that they will do so without any further blockades so as to put a bit of positive into that release. I understand why you're suggesting that but I actually suspect that NR are checking to see what plant resources might be available later in the year and if they can get the wiring train for, say, a fortnight then they may opt to try to string a lot of the wires in a concerted surge of effort - what's the betting on August holidays? All the other preparatory work of actually installing all the mast and supports can be done in advance. You may be right about the "prepare people for the worst and then pull a rabbit from the hat" tactic but I think NR have got a real mess on their hands and they're genuinely unsure of just how much time is needed. The press release does refer to "I have instructed the project team to quickly deliver a robust plan to finish the work before new trains arrive next year" which rather suggests a) there wasn't / isn't a robust plan in place. b) the concept of finishing seems to be a new requirement.   c) the work could run on for another year in total as new trains won't run before this time next year. I am being a tad perverse in my interpretation there but there's no commitment there to trying to finish by June or even during a "season" (that usual way of disguising 3 months of programme "flex"). |
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Post by rail2210 on Feb 7, 2017 21:32:04 GMT
Is it known if there has been any work on platform extensions or other track work, or will that now be completed later in the year? The press release says a lot of track lowering and bridge replacement work has been done. To be fair that is accurate because it has been done. There is an issue with the bridge at Crouch Hill station that will have to be raised at a later date. Apparently that has been an issue for a long while in terms of whether it had to be raised or not. There will be a waiver to allow electric trains to run. There will be an issue though when it comes to replacing that bridge given the vastly busy W7 bus runs over it and it carries thousands of people from Muswell Hill and Crouch End to Finsbury Park every day. A quick look at Streetview suggests there is a reasonable diversion that skirts round the closure but whether the residents will allow it is another thing altogether. It looks like WW Queens Road has got new longer and lower platforms but only just long enough for 4 cars. The old platform ends are noticeably higher. Nothing has been done at Blackhorse Road to extend the platforms so far. Impossible to tell at the stns on viaducts because you simply can't see what's going on. I've not been to Crouch Hill / Upper Holloway / Gospel Oak so can't comment on those. If platform works haven't been done it's not exactly a crisis because it'll be a year before longer trains run and we know that platform extension work can be done in engineering hours with the odd weekend closure chucked in. TfL had separately contracted the platform extension works anyway so not for Network Rail to be bothered about at this stage. I had not realised that the bridge at Crouch Hill would also have to be raised, but surely it would make sense for this to be done before the electric trains are introduced (finances permitting)? Strange that the line might have to close temporarily again, not long after months of weekend/all-week closures. |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 7, 2017 21:36:21 GMT
Who remembers the discussion about the type of train that would be used when the line reopens, with some people asking why the diesels would be returning to a railway line that has just been electrified? Perhaps its just as well that the diesels were retained! Well yes it is just as well the trains were ordered later than would have been ideal and that there is a gap. However you can look at it the other way round and say that if the trains had been due to enter service in, say, 2 months time then there would have been unrelenting pressure on NR and TfL to manage the work much more effectively to avoid embarrassment and the humiliation of new trains sat in sidings unable to be used. One wonders if there was a slightly "relaxed" mindset because everyone knew there was a year's gap between the work theoretically finishing and new trains using the new infrastructure. The fact that there may be a knock on to work on Crossrail - the project that cannot fail - seems not to have had weighed too heavily on people's minds but it may well do now. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 7, 2017 21:55:56 GMT
Do we think this graphic accompanying the press release actually tells us something?  What is the significance of the green bits? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 22:06:44 GMT
The green bits are the track lowering sections. The OLE design was done overseas, with poor coordination and control. Deadline after deadline was missed for design delivery. Can't say much more  |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 7, 2017 22:06:56 GMT
Do we think this graphic accompanying the press release actually tells us something? What is the significance of the green bits? It's an old graphic from the video issued just before the work started last June. The green bits are where tracks were lowered. |
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Post by phil on Feb 7, 2017 22:12:52 GMT
Maybe its the other way round - given the gap before the new trains arrive, it could be Crossrail got first dibs on resources as its needs are more urgent. People should also remember that after 25 years without any electrification in this country, so many projects all coming along at once has highlighted a chronic lack of designers, manufacturers, installers and general OHLE know how within the UK which is not easily or quickly rectified. |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 7, 2017 22:34:41 GMT
People should also remember that after 25 years without any electrification in this country, so many projects all coming along at once has highlighted a chronic lack of designers, manufacturers, installers and general OHLE know how within the UK which is not easily or quickly rectified. While I understand your point I'm not very sympathetic. NR has managed to do smaller scale schemes in Scotland and also where route modernisation has required electrification to be added, extended or modified. There is a wealth of experience world wide that can be called on and other electrification schemes such as the Tyne and Wear Metro and tramways have carried on during the main line railway impasse so the industry, in its widest sense, has retained experience of the basic actitivies. NR has made a lot of very basic *project* mistakes such as not doing enough or sufficiently thorough planning work and risk assessment. There also seems to be an inability to control what goes on with their staff and contractors on site. If you have the organisational competence to rebuild London Bridge or build bridges and viaducts and rejig main lines to programme then why is electrification so difficult? Being very simple you need to dig some holes, stick some masts in, add substations, run miles of cables / wires and then switch it on and do some supporting civils works (bread and butter stuff on a railway). The volume of repetitive tasks might be high but it's not that hard. Some of the GOBLIN's mast foundations were in place last Spring and still haven't got masts in them! Why did NR write to lineside neighbours in December saying 24 hour working of the wiring train would start on 12 Jan? Someone in the project team must have known there was no way that hundreds of missing masts would suddenly materialise in a month to allow wiring to begin. Why wasn't the comms process stopped as it has proved to be completely untrue? (rhetorical question, not expecting anyone here to answer). It would be nice to believe the NR "what went wrong" investigation report will be published but I bet it won't be. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 23:25:00 GMT
Any "what went wrong" investigation report should be available through a Freedom of Information Act enquiry I would have thought. I have mentioned the primary reason for the failure to deliver, I'm afraid I can't explain why the public comms weren't more accurate. The heavy civils were delivered to programme and under budget. I can say great effort and long hours have been spent trying to deliver the OLE steelwork but the wall was hit because repeatedly NR could not get the OLE designs in their hands in time to meet lead times for fabrication. I wish OLE were as simple as you seem to think it is!
I used to work for Tube Lines on the JNUP (Jubilee and Northern Upgrade Project), overseeing Thales' design for signalling structures. That was another example of an overseas designer not appreciating the difficulty of fitting new kit to a creaking and crumbling Victorian infrastructure. I ended up in their office coaching their very young design team to get stuff out the door.
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 8, 2017 1:16:48 GMT
OLE is definitely not simple. I've seen the email chain where HWMBO asked if an OLE mast could be erected four inches nearer the line so the drainage would be easier to build. The OLE team said yes, but only if they could also move the nearest rail by the same amount; the discussion continued and there was a very real discussion about moving the entire West Coast Mainline four inches to the east. Until it was realised that this would mean moving the drainage four inches, which brought it into conflict again with the OLE mast. I think in the end the drainage was built with a kink in it.
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Post by phil on Feb 8, 2017 18:31:16 GMT
People should also remember that after 25 years without any electrification in this country, so many projects all coming along at once has highlighted a chronic lack of designers, manufacturers, installers and general OHLE know how within the UK which is not easily or quickly rectified. While I understand your point I'm not very sympathetic. NR has managed to do smaller scale schemes in Scotland and also where route modernisation has required electrification to be added, extended or modified. There is a wealth of experience world wide that can be called on and other electrification schemes such as the Tyne and Wear Metro and tramways have carried on during the main line railway impasse so the industry, in its widest sense, has retained experience of the basic actitivies. NR has made a lot of very basic *project* mistakes such as not doing enough or sufficiently thorough planning work and risk assessment. There also seems to be an inability to control what goes on with their staff and contractors on site. If you have the organisational competence to rebuild London Bridge or build bridges and viaducts and rejig main lines to programme then why is electrification so difficult? Being very simple you need to dig some holes, stick some masts in, add substations, run miles of cables / wires and then switch it on and do some supporting civils works (bread and butter stuff on a railway). The volume of repetitive tasks might be high but it's not that hard. Some of the GOBLIN's mast foundations were in place last Spring and still haven't got masts in them! Why did NR write to lineside neighbours in December saying 24 hour working of the wiring train would start on 12 Jan? Someone in the project team must have known there was no way that hundreds of missing masts would suddenly materialise in a month to allow wiring to begin. Why wasn't the comms process stopped as it has proved to be completely untrue? (rhetorical question, not expecting anyone here to answer). It would be nice to believe the NR "what went wrong" investigation report will be published but I bet it won't be. I think you will find the Scottish schemes are also significantly behind schedule - as is the later phases of the North West scheme. Yes Airdrie - Bathgate was completed on time, but at that stage there was no other electrification schemes taking place ANYWHERE in the country. Similarly other infill bits and bobs have been just that - with no completing schemes drawing resources away. As such it has been evident for some time that NRs original plans with regard electrification timescales were hopelessly wrong across all schemes. NR have quite correctly come in for a lot of stick over this - but the fact remains you cannot just magic up skilled electrification resources (be it men or materials at a click of the fingers) - though NRs possession planning has rightly come in for a lot of stick on the GWML. You also need to remember that NR (despite what the Politicians like to pretend) is (and has been for a while) effectively a Government department. As such its decisions have become more and more influenced by the need to keep Whitehall happy. Given that new electric* stock is rolling off the production line NOW for the GWML, Crossrail and Scotland, there is intense pressure to finish those three schemes as soon as possible. Goblin will not be getting its stock built for another year so NR and their political masters can afford to give the line back unfinished. * Although the class 800 is a bi-mode, it won't match the existing HST timings while on diesel. It is also bar far the most expensive train to lease in the country due to the DfT having procured it direct - paying a fortune to Hitachi while they sit there in sidings unused would be political suicide. |
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Post by A60stock on Feb 8, 2017 23:32:40 GMT
Phil - Do you mind explaining those last two lines? I thought the new class 800 would be quicker in terms of acceleration off the mark than the hst's? Have i missed something?
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Post by Dom K on Feb 8, 2017 23:39:36 GMT
Back on topic please
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Post by crusty54 on Feb 9, 2017 5:51:36 GMT
The shutdown was to lower track where necessary.
The new trains are nowhere near delivery so the overhead line equipment can be installed at night/during weekend possessions.
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 9, 2017 8:09:07 GMT
Phil - Do you mind explaining those last two lines? I thought the new class 800 would be quicker in terms of acceleration off the mark than the hst's? Have i missed something? Just to close this point, a bi-mode Hitachi IEP operating on diesel power will only have a top speed of 100mph. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Feb 9, 2017 10:32:38 GMT
This thread began by reporting that Murphys had been awarded the GOBLIN electrification project. I was therefore rather surprised their distinctive green vans were not widely in evidence in the NR video announcing the task was 80% done or indeed recent photos kindly provided by Snoggle. As Murphys have a strong base in civils I guess their part was mostly tangential to the platform and track lowering civils, although even there, Murphy's seem to have used Stobart Rail for a lot of the trackside work. Nevertheless as the big stuff seems well advanced it may well be that the knitting etc can be largely added alongside an operational line even if NR have not managed to complete everything they had planned during the current blockade.
Inherently the big question is "what is the big question?" that triggered NR concerns about the electrification project design? Presumably NR already have a snagging list, and it seems a shame that with still almost 3 weeks without trains, they are not throwing a lot of resource at all or any of those snags especially any which apparently need a further closure. If nothing else they should be able to do as much of the track occupancy enabling work now - installing footings etc surely does not need high tec components - just a decision on what footings need to go where. Hopefully if they use the remaining 3 week well they can reduce as far as possible the need for any weekend possessions.
Hopefully someone in the London Assembly will be stirring up the Mayor, TFL and NR by tabling a heap of targeted questions on what is really wrong and why they are not taking full advantage of the current closure.
I am not sure where things stand re the decision by TFL to manage the platform extension works rather than NR. Comparing the recent photos by Snoggle and previous driver's eye videos gives little sign of work being done to make platforms suitable for 4 car let alone 5 car services. Given the stunning traffic growth on other Overground routes it seems a shame that they have aimed so low, especially as the lions share of costs on any platform extension project is mobilising a materials, staff and equipment to site so at most site the extra cost of a 5 coach ready platform would be a fairly insignificant increase on the cost of simply doubling the current 2 coach platforms.
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Post by crusty54 on Feb 9, 2017 17:02:28 GMT
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Post by jukes on Feb 9, 2017 17:50:26 GMT
Just for context, the first 3 service ready 710s might be here in mid-December (as provided for in the contract), so it would be very awkward if work on the OLE is not finished by then as TfL would really like to introduce them as a 'Christmas' present, assuming Bombardier keep to time. The latest date for delivery of the first 3 is end February 2018, and production fabrication has already started. Bombardier has a very full order book so wants to churn them out ASAP!
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Post by snoggle on Feb 9, 2017 18:11:06 GMT
Just for context, the first 3 service ready 710s might be here in mid-December (as provided for in the contract), so it would be very awkward if work on the OLE is not finished by then as TfL would really like to introduce them as a 'Christmas' present, assuming Bombardier keep to time. The latest date for delivery of the first 3 is end February 2018, and production fabrication has already started. Bombardier has a very full order book so wants to churn them out ASAP! Aren't the 710s a brand new type or will they be able to "Piggy Back" whatever approvals are granted to the 345s? I also can't see TfL wanting to make a big splash about new trains unless they are certain they've been debugged somewhat and are running at reasonable reliability levels. If trains do turn up in December then great but I don't expect to see them in service very quickly just because of all the stuff that will be needed to ensure they fit the infrastructure (not just the GOBLIN), build reliability in advance of passenger service and coping with fleet migration (incl driver and engineer training) - not a lot of spare stabling space around! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 9, 2017 18:11:37 GMT
Just for context, the first 3 service ready 710s might be here in mid-December (as provided for in the contract), so it would be very awkward if work on the OLE is not finished by then ! Only eight of the 45-strong fleet are destined for the Goblin, so there is little danger of the first three having to stand idle if the wires are not ready. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 9, 2017 18:15:12 GMT
Are the first units going to be AC only (for the Liverpool Street lines) or dual voltage (GOBLIN and Watford DC). If the former then that's a convenient way to buy more time to get the knitting sorted.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 9, 2017 18:30:44 GMT
Inherently the big question is "what is the big question?" that triggered NR concerns about the electrification project design? Presumably NR already have a snagging list, and it seems a shame that with still almost 3 weeks without trains, they are not throwing a lot of resource at all or any of those snags especially any which apparently need a further closure. If nothing else they should be able to do as much of the track occupancy enabling work now - installing footings etc surely does not need high tec components - just a decision on what footings need to go where. Hopefully if they use the remaining 3 week well they can reduce as far as possible the need for any weekend possessions. Hopefully someone in the London Assembly will be stirring up the Mayor, TFL and NR by tabling a heap of targeted questions on what is really wrong and why they are not taking full advantage of the current closure. I am not sure where things stand re the decision by TFL to manage the platform extension works rather than NR. Comparing the recent photos by Snoggle and previous driver's eye videos gives little sign of work being done to make platforms suitable for 4 car let alone 5 car services. Given the stunning traffic growth on other Overground routes it seems a shame that they have aimed so low, especially as the lions share of costs on any platform extension project is mobilising a materials, staff and equipment to site so at most site the extra cost of a 5 coach ready platform would be a fairly insignificant increase on the cost of simply doubling the current 2 coach platforms. A few comments. 1. I suspect the NR project team are fully occupied trying to explain what went wrong / getting their backsides kicked black and blue / trying to work out a robust and deliverable updated programme. There will also be issues about the ability to fund the costs of further closures, lost revenue that TfL assumed they'd get, the impact of the Overground concession contract, can rail replacement buses be scheduled given a load of other closures are already planned and resourced. 2. I expect there will be a shedload of commercial issues about the work done / outstanding. No contractor is going to throw resources at work if there is a dispute about what they will be paid for and when. NR cannot force its contractors to do more as I expect there are accusations flying back and forth about who has done what, why and when. 3. The line's user group have very long established contacts with Assembly Members and MPs. They have been firing questions through their "tame" AMs for months and months - they're very easy to spot. I think we can guarantee that there will be *loads* of questions month after month on the subject of GOBLIN electrification. At some point there will be a Plenary meeting with TfL Commissioner and the Mayor and I suspect both rail devolution and this project will feature in the questioning in that session. 4. The problem is that you can't justify spending for 5 car trains today when official forecasts show the work isn't needed for another 20-30 years! It's always the art of the possible when it comes to justifying expenditure rather than seeking approval for perfection. And yes reality can vary from forecasts, hindsight is marvellous etc etc but you won't get the Treasury to change its ways by citing railway projects. All the Treasury will do is say "blah blah useless, blah blah SSR resignalling cock up, blah blah Jubilee Line Extension, blah blah West Coast Main Line upgrade, blah blah main line electrification, inefficient / useless / hopeless LT / TfL / Network Rail, we are protecting public funds from being wasted." The telling thing to watch is how long it takes for a stable programme and associated closures / blockade to emerge and be "blessed" by TfL in terms of a joint announcement. TfL have still not said anything formally apart from a grumbling "this is a big deal" quote on Twitter yesterday. It's not really going to be very simple to fix because there are now so many constraints from other projects that may also have laid claim to plant and equipment that the GOBLIN works might need. And now to watch BBC London News's report!.   EDIT - and unsurprisingly there were complaints / comments from a neighbour near the line complaining about the noise of the work (they've had letters advising of extra work), Caroline Pidgeon AM lining up TfL for a grilling in future over their apparent lack of oversight and a rep from the User Group saying NR have taken on too much work without enough of the right resource. Meanwhile no one from TfL or Network Rail appeared. |
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