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Post by jamesb on Sept 26, 2015 21:03:20 GMT
(Posts moved from a thread discussing the problems on 26/09 more generally and the resultant chaos and confusion at Leytonstone in particular, which is here.)A delay at Woodford seemed excessive this evening. Terminating train on westbound waited ages (maybe 7 minutes) for an eastbound train to enter sidings. By which time me there was a westbound train waiting outside Woodford. Alternatives? - turn the terminating train around at Woodford and get it out direct to Hainault via the crossover at the eastern end of the westbound platform or allow it to go forwards adjacent to the Hainault siding allowing the eastbound terminating train to enter the main sidings via the Hainault siding. Both ways avoiding passengers sitting outside Woodford on a westbound train waiting. I guess the poor controller is looking at the entire line and cannot pay that much attention to Woodford. You'd think that a computer algorithm would automatically calculate the quickest way to get everything moving
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Post by superteacher on Sept 26, 2015 21:09:25 GMT
A delay at Woodford seemed excessive this evening. Terminating train on westbound waited ages (maybe 7 minutes) for an eastbound train to entire sidings. By which time me there was a westbound train waiting outside Woodford. Alternatives? - turn the terminating train around at Woodford and get it out direct to Hainault via the crossover at the eastern end of the westbound platform or allow it to go forwards adjacent to the Hainault siding allowing the eastbound terminating train to enter the main sidings via the Hainault siding. Both ways avoiding passengers sitting outside Woodford on a westbound train waiting. I guess the poor controller is looking at the entire line and cannot pay that much attention to Woodford. You'd think that a computer algorithm would automatically calculate the quickest way to get everything moving I believe that service regulators handle different parts of the line, with the line controller in overall charge. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2015 22:07:47 GMT
As I understand it, at Wood Lane there are three "line controllers" on one side of the room (they may not all be the line controllers, one of them might be LIS or something, for example, there might only be 1 line controller, but there are three people doing line-control-y things) and three "service controllers"/signallers on the other side. I believe the "west end signaller" looks after six sites at the west end of the line, the "city signaller" looks after six in the central section and the "east end signaller" looks after seven sites on the east end of the line.
This is what I've gleaned from Video125's bonus tour of Wood Lane SCC, anyway (it's not fantastically detailed, but worth watching), but as far as line control is concerned, they'll obviously be taking an overview of the railway and making the tactical decisions to suspend or amend the service, add trains in, take trains out, all of that. They'll be communicating with people as well and managing incidents and stuff. Their instructions are put into action by the signallers, who can presumably take a little initiative and intervene when they need to.
In general, the way it works is that the computers are programmed with the timetable and, all being well, if nothing went wrong, the computers would be capable of operating the railway without intervention. The way it works is, each train has a timetable that it runs to, which will be made up of however many trips. So, trip one might be Ruislip Depot to West Ruislip, trip 2 might be West Ruislip to Epping, trip 3 might be Epping to West Ruislip and so on. Now, when the job's up the wall, what you can do at Wood Lane is, using the computers, you can call up the timetable for a train and edit its trip. So, let's say Train 010 is on trip 7: Epping to West Ruislip, but you want to turn it short at North Acton, or divert it to Ealing Broadway, then you call up Train 010 on the computer and simply edit that trip and then the computers will route the train according to its new, modified timetable.
Now, alternatively, what you can do is take manual control of the site and set the routes yourself, in a more traditional manner (albeit with a more modern interface and underlying system).
As for the incident jamesb is referring to: I think you and I may have been at Woodford at the same time! I disagree that it was the wrong decision, however. Taking the train out at South Woodford and running it empty to stable in Woodford sidings is a reasonably fair move, you've sometimes gotta get trains away and there are all sorts of reasons to choose Woodford. The train may have been due to stable there anyway, but a big one is the possibility of a driver going over hours and Woodford is convenient and close to Leytonstone crew depot.
Now, to stable a train in Woodford sidings, as you know, 21 road must be left clear which, like you say, is the road that the Hainault train would usually reverse in. So, obviously, the Hainault train has to wait for the stabling train to enter the sidings, before it can reverse on 21 road. Or else, the train entering the sidings has to wait for the Hainault train to reverse, which blocks the eastbound main.
There is, like you say, the alternative to do a mainline shunt, with the Hainault train reversing on the mainline. But that means that westbound trains then have to go the long way around the reversing train, via 21 road - a long, slow journey and not really worth it. That would probably have delayed two trains, which would have had to be routed around the shunting Hainault train. So I don't really think that would've been the wisest move.
There is, as you say, the other alternative to reverse the Hainault train off platform, but this is a pain, too. This also delays the westbound from Buckhurst Hill whilst the move is carried out and it means you have to mess around getting passengers to the right place (never, in all my years of commuting from Roding Valley, has this move not caused passenger confusion) and now the Hainault train is out of turn when it arrives at Woodford junction and even more out of sequence generally, which isn't what you need, really, when you're trying to rebuild the service.
Whereas, the short wait for the stabling train to clear 21 road really didn't hold up the train on the westbound main very much - at least not when I was there. Perhaps we are talking about different incidents and when you were there, you witnessed something similar, but more disruptive to the train on the westbound main. But I think you underestimate how disruptive the alternatives would be - and to the eastbound as well. When I was there, there were two trains due on the eastbound, one of which had already been held up by the train being tipped out at South Woodford and it would not have been helped by having a train reversing off of platform 2 via the crossover.
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Post by jamesb on Sept 27, 2015 1:15:06 GMT
As I understand it, at Wood Lane there are three "line controllers" on one side of the room (they may not all be the line controllers, one of them might be LIS or something, for example, there might only be 1 line controller, but there are three people doing line-control-y things) and three "service controllers"/signallers on the other side. I believe the "west end signaller" looks after six sites at the west end of the line, the "city signaller" looks after six in the central section and the "east end signaller" looks after seven sites on the east end of the line. This is what I've gleaned from Video125's bonus tour of Wood Lane SCC, anyway (it's not fantastically detailed, but worth watching), but as far as line control is concerned, they'll obviously be taking an overview of the railway and making the tactical decisions to suspend or amend the service, add trains in, take trains out, all of that. They'll be communicating with people as well and managing incidents and stuff. Their instructions are put into action by the signallers, who can presumably take a little initiative and intervene when they need to. In general, the way it works is that the computers are programmed with the timetable and, all being well, if nothing went wrong, the computers would be capable of operating the railway without intervention. The way it works is, each train has a timetable that it runs to, which will be made up of however many trips. So, trip one might be Ruislip Depot to West Ruislip, trip 2 might be West Ruislip to Epping, trip 3 might be Epping to West Ruislip and so on. Now, when the job's up the wall, what you can do at Wood Lane is, using the computers, you can call up the timetable for a train and edit its trip. So, let's say Train 010 is on trip 7: Epping to West Ruislip, but you want to turn it short at North Acton, or divert it to Ealing Broadway, then you call up Train 010 on the computer and simply edit that trip and then the computers will route the train according to its new, modified timetable. Now, alternatively, what you can do is take manual control of the site and set the routes yourself, in a more traditional manner (albeit with a more modern interface and underlying system). As for the incident jamesb is referring to: I think you and I may have been at Woodford at the same time! I disagree that it was the wrong decision, however. Taking the train out at South Woodford and running it empty to stable in Woodford sidings is a reasonably fair move, you've sometimes gotta get trains away and there are all sorts of reasons to choose Woodford. The train may have been due to stable there anyway, but a big one is the possibility of a driver going over hours and Woodford is convenient and close to Leytonstone crew depot. Now, to stable a train in Woodford sidings, as you know, 21 road must be left clear which, like you say, is the road that the Hainault train would usually reverse in. So, obviously, the Hainault train has to wait for the stabling train to enter the sidings, before it can reverse on 21 road. Or else, the train entering the sidings has to wait for the Hainault train to reverse, which blocks the eastbound main. There is, like you say, the alternative to do a mainline shunt, with the Hainault train reversing on the mainline. But that means that westbound trains then have to go the long way around the reversing train, via 21 road - a long, slow journey and not really worth it. That would probably have delayed two trains, which would have had to be routed around the shunting Hainault train. So I don't really think that would've been the wisest move. There is, as you say, the other alternative to reverse the Hainault train off platform, but this is a pain, too. This also delays the westbound from Buckhurst Hill whilst the move is carried out and it means you have to mess around getting passengers to the right place (never, in all my years of commuting from Roding Valley, has this move not caused passenger confusion) and now the Hainault train is out of turn when it arrives at Woodford junction and even more out of sequence generally, which isn't what you need, really, when you're trying to rebuild the service. Whereas, the short wait for the stabling train to clear 21 road really didn't hold up the train on the westbound main very much - at least not when I was there. Perhaps we are talking about different incidents and when you were there, you witnessed something similar, but more disruptive to the train on the westbound main. But I think you underestimate how disruptive the alternatives would be - and to the eastbound as well. When I was there, there were two trains due on the eastbound, one of which had already been held up by the train being tipped out at South Woodford and it would not have been helped by having a train reversing off of platform 2 via the crossover. Haha yes we must have been there at the same time! Small world. There was a Grange Hill train 6 minutes after the Hainault  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2015 1:17:36 GMT
As I understand it, at Wood Lane there are three "line controllers" on one side of the room (they may not all be the line controllers, one of them might be LIS or something, for example, there might only be 1 line controller, but there are three people doing line-control-y things) and three "service controllers"/signallers on the other side. I believe the "west end signaller" looks after six sites at the west end of the line, the "city signaller" looks after six in the central section and the "east end signaller" looks after seven sites on the east end of the line. This is what I've gleaned from Video125's bonus tour of Wood Lane SCC, anyway (it's not fantastically detailed, but worth watching), but as far as line control is concerned, they'll obviously be taking an overview of the railway and making the tactical decisions to suspend or amend the service, add trains in, take trains out, all of that. They'll be communicating with people as well and managing incidents and stuff. Their instructions are put into action by the signallers, who can presumably take a little initiative and intervene when they need to. In general, the way it works is that the computers are programmed with the timetable and, all being well, if nothing went wrong, the computers would be capable of operating the railway without intervention. The way it works is, each train has a timetable that it runs to, which will be made up of however many trips. So, trip one might be Ruislip Depot to West Ruislip, trip 2 might be West Ruislip to Epping, trip 3 might be Epping to West Ruislip and so on. Now, when the job's up the wall, what you can do at Wood Lane is, using the computers, you can call up the timetable for a train and edit its trip. So, let's say Train 010 is on trip 7: Epping to West Ruislip, but you want to turn it short at North Acton, or divert it to Ealing Broadway, then you call up Train 010 on the computer and simply edit that trip and then the computers will route the train according to its new, modified timetable. Now, alternatively, what you can do is take manual control of the site and set the routes yourself, in a more traditional manner (albeit with a more modern interface and underlying system). As for the incident jamesb is referring to: I think you and I may have been at Woodford at the same time! I disagree that it was the wrong decision, however. Taking the train out at South Woodford and running it empty to stable in Woodford sidings is a reasonably fair move, you've sometimes gotta get trains away and there are all sorts of reasons to choose Woodford. The train may have been due to stable there anyway, but a big one is the possibility of a driver going over hours and Woodford is convenient and close to Leytonstone crew depot. Now, to stable a train in Woodford sidings, as you know, 21 road must be left clear which, like you say, is the road that the Hainault train would usually reverse in. So, obviously, the Hainault train has to wait for the stabling train to enter the sidings, before it can reverse on 21 road. Or else, the train entering the sidings has to wait for the Hainault train to reverse, which blocks the eastbound main. There is, like you say, the alternative to do a mainline shunt, with the Hainault train reversing on the mainline. But that means that westbound trains then have to go the long way around the reversing train, via 21 road - a long, slow journey and not really worth it. That would probably have delayed two trains, which would have had to be routed around the shunting Hainault train. So I don't really think that would've been the wisest move. There is, as you say, the other alternative to reverse the Hainault train off platform, but this is a pain, too. This also delays the westbound from Buckhurst Hill whilst the move is carried out and it means you have to mess around getting passengers to the right place (never, in all my years of commuting from Roding Valley, has this move not caused passenger confusion) and now the Hainault train is out of turn when it arrives at Woodford junction and even more out of sequence generally, which isn't what you need, really, when you're trying to rebuild the service. Whereas, the short wait for the stabling train to clear 21 road really didn't hold up the train on the westbound main very much - at least not when I was there. Perhaps we are talking about different incidents and when you were there, you witnessed something similar, but more disruptive to the train on the westbound main. But I think you underestimate how disruptive the alternatives would be - and to the eastbound as well. When I was there, there were two trains due on the eastbound, one of which had already been held up by the train being tipped out at South Woodford and it would not have been helped by having a train reversing off of platform 2 via the crossover. Haha yes we must have been there at the same time! Small world. There was a Grange Hill train 6 minutes after the Hainault Yes there was!  Small world indeed. I was walking swiftly around the station trying to get a good view of the train stabling (what can I say, bit of a tube nerd) and probably making myself appear quite ditzy to everyone else ...  |
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 28, 2015 0:29:24 GMT
The real problem with terminating trains at Woodford is that it is not possible for eastbound trains to enter the bay platform without going through the siding. Nor for westbound trains to leave the bay platform without doing the same.
I feel sure that this was not always the situation. So why was the track layout changed to be like this?
Simon
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2015 0:41:28 GMT
I can confirm that this wasn't always the case, although back then, 21 road was a bona fide siding, not connected at both ends, so it would not have been possible to enter or leave the bay road from/towards South Woodford via the siding. The area was substantially simplified, reducing complexity and with it the amount of maintenance required. I assume this was the overarching philosophy - although precisely how and why the present layout was decided upon I couldn't tell you.
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Post by stapler on Sept 28, 2015 6:54:55 GMT
Tut, is it permissible for a train in passenger service to take that route into the bay? Or only empty stock?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2015 14:48:17 GMT
Passengers may travel over 21 road, I've been over it many times. Passengers may be carried from platform 1 (bay road) to South Woodford, from E/B platform 3 to South Woodford (both compulsorily via 21 road, I believe) and from W/B platform 2 to South Woodford via 21 road (if being routed round a train doing a mainline shunt). Passengers may also be carried from South Woodford to platform 1 (bay road), which is compulsorily via 21 road. This is because all of these routes are under colour light signals.
However, 21 road to E/B platform 3 is controlled by a shunt signal and is therefore not cleared for passengers and this is one of the reasons why passengers must be detrained from the train from Hainault when it reverses in 21 road to go back to Hainault. Obviously 21 road to sidings is also a shunt move and not cleared for passengers.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Sept 28, 2015 16:55:37 GMT
Passengers may travel over 21 road, I've been over it many times. Passengers may be carried from platform 1 (bay road) to South Woodford, from E/B platform 3 to South Woodford (both compulsorily via 21 road, I believe) and from W/B platform 2 to South Woodford via 21 road (if being routed round a train doing a mainline shunt). Passengers may also be carried from South Woodford to platform 1 (bay road), which is compulsorily via 21 road. This is because all of these routes are under colour light signals. However, 21 road to E/B platform 3 is controlled by a shunt signal and is therefore not cleared for passengers and this is one of the reasons why passengers must be detrained from the train from Hainault when it reverses in 21 road to go back to Hainault. Obviously 21 road to sidings is also a shunt move and not cleared for passengers. Very interesting tut. It's one of those arrangements that I remember quite clearly from my (relative) youth with 21 road being a proper single entrance/exit siding and then never quite got to work out what had happened in later years! I quite often caught a train (62TS) from Platform 1 bay into town (and out the other side again) early in the morning and occasionally got a train in the opposite direction (Eastbound) into Platform 1. In those days it was never via 21 road which was often occupied by 60TS with a couple of Standard trailers, 67TS and later 60TS with a single 38TS trailer. Owing to my sporadic visits to Woodford nowadays I've not yet traveled on 21 road itself. Do you know of any track diagrams for the area pre and post alterations? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2015 17:07:16 GMT
Passengers may travel over 21 road, I've been over it many times. Passengers may be carried from platform 1 (bay road) to South Woodford, from E/B platform 3 to South Woodford (both compulsorily via 21 road, I believe) and from W/B platform 2 to South Woodford via 21 road (if being routed round a train doing a mainline shunt). Passengers may also be carried from South Woodford to platform 1 (bay road), which is compulsorily via 21 road. This is because all of these routes are under colour light signals. However, 21 road to E/B platform 3 is controlled by a shunt signal and is therefore not cleared for passengers and this is one of the reasons why passengers must be detrained from the train from Hainault when it reverses in 21 road to go back to Hainault. Obviously 21 road to sidings is also a shunt move and not cleared for passengers. Very interesting tut. It's one of those arrangements that I remember quite clearly from my (relative) youth with 21 road being a proper single entrance/exit siding and then never quite got to work out what had happened in later years! I quite often caught a train (62TS) from Platform 1 bay into town (and out the other side again) early in the morning and occasionally got a train in the opposite direction (Eastbound) into Platform 1. In those days it was never via 21 road which was often occupied by 60TS with a couple of Standard trailers, 67TS and later 60TS with a single 38TS trailer. Owing to my sporadic visits to Woodford nowadays I've not yet traveled on 21 road itself. Do you know of any track diagrams for the area pre and post alterations? And now: a shameless plug: TUT rambles on (and on) about Woodford^I think that's accurate and still up to date. I do have a better diagram of Woodford though: LinkHarsig's excellent diagram shows old old Woodford, but I haven't been able to find a nice diagram of the area post the closure of the goods yards and all of that. Harsig's signalling diagram |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 28, 2015 18:00:19 GMT
I've never understood the rationale behind the most recent layout at Woodford. Many years ago, there was an article in Underground News about it, and I remember writing in about it,
It basically means that when you want to reverse a train at Woodford in the bay platform, you can't have a train in 21 road. When they plan to reverse a train at Woodford, they must reverse the train from Hainault via the main line.
Far less flexible.
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Post by stapler on Sept 28, 2015 18:05:48 GMT
Tut, I'd take issue with you about the station exterior. It includes one of the three oldest railway structures on LU, in that the station house is the original ECR building of 1856 (along with Snaresbrook and the shamefully-neglected old station at Buckhurst Hill). You miss it because of the the 1980s UTS building in front of it...
So it's 7 years ahead of the "proper" Underground...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2015 18:08:43 GMT
Tut, I'd take issue with you about the station exterior. It includes one of the three oldest railway structures on LU, in that the station house is the original ECR building of 1856 (along with Snaresbrook and the shamefully-neglected old station at Buckhurst Hill). You miss it because of the the 1980s UTS building in front of it... So it's 7 years ahead of the "proper" Underground... Thank you for that I had no idea! Tut tut, disparaging a historic station exterior out of sheer ignorance  |
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Post by stapler on Sept 28, 2015 18:16:05 GMT
Take a dekko next time you are stuck waiting for a loop train, Tut, and imagine yourself back in the days when Snakes Lane was a track down to a big pond and not a house to be seen....
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Post by hobbayne on Sept 28, 2015 22:09:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2015 22:25:36 GMT
Thanks for this I believe that signal might still have been LJ 2 - in fact, I don't think 21 lever in Woodford signal box was used! |
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Small world indeed. I was walking swiftly around the station trying to get a good view of the train stabling (what can I say, bit of a tube nerd) and probably making myself appear quite ditzy to everyone else ... 
