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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 13:24:27 GMT
I wonder if anyone could help me with a matter which is puzzling me. I have always thought the Victoria Line runs very close to me, as I am slightly affected by noise from trains in my basement flat. That's what I have always thought, as the famous "greek-temple" style Ventilation shaft in Gibson Square N1 is no more than about 75 metres away: eibonvale.wordpress.com/2013/05/12/979/However, looking at "Geographical" maps of the Victoria Line, the route is shown as being about 200 metres away from the Gibson Square shaft, the nearest point being on the other side of Liverpool Road: www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=8a567ebac15748d39a747649a2e86cf4Actually, I can see after passing Gibson Square it does come closer to me by passing diagonally under Milner Square, (though maybe not as close as I had thought) so that explains the noise, but I'm still a little curious as to how the ventilation shaft can be apparently quite distant from the line. I'm also wondering about how much the imminent arrival of all-night Victoria Line trains will affect me, noise-wise, a matter which no-one seems to have mentioned as far as I know, though it must affect a lot of people. |
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Post by stapler on Sept 13, 2015 13:38:03 GMT
For an interesting perspective on "forgotten" tunnels, see www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=4819which is the account of how a developer started boring shafts for plies through the GN and City line. Islington Council planning dept will have an accurate map. Maps Google shows the Vic Line passing under the NW corner of Gibson Square. Should the noise from Night Tube be any different from that with Day Tube? |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Sept 13, 2015 14:03:52 GMT
I wonder if anyone could help me with a matter which is puzzling me. I have always thought the Victoria Line runs very close to me, as I am slightly affected by noise from trains in my basement flat. That's what I have always thought, as the famous "greek-temple" style Ventilation shaft in Gibson Square N1 is no more than about 75 metres away: eibonvale.wordpress.com/2013/05/12/979/However, looking at "Geographical" maps of the Victoria Line, the route is shown as being about 200 metres away from the Gibson Square shaft, the nearest point being on the other side of Liverpool Road: www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=8a567ebac15748d39a747649a2e86cf4Actually, I can see after passing Gibson Square it does come closer to me by passing diagonally under Milner Square, (though maybe not as close as I had thought) so that explains the noise, but I'm still a little curious as to how the ventilation shaft can be apparently quite distant from the line. I'm also wondering about how much the imminent arrival of all-night Victoria Line trains will affect me, noise-wise, a matter which no-one seems to have mentioned as far as I know, though it must affect a lot of people. Welcome to the forum funken99 and many thanks for a well put first post. I'm no expert on the Victoria line but if it's any help, having lived next door to the Central Line for many years (admittedly above ground) I found that I hardly noticed the noise although visitors to our house who were unused to it often did. The engineering trains and overnight track maintenance never woke me up either as I'd became conditioned to it. It's amazing what we can blot out of our hearing if we need to!  |
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 13, 2015 14:24:05 GMT
I wonder if anyone could help me with a matter which is puzzling me. I have always thought the Victoria Line runs very close to me, as I am slightly affected by noise from trains in my basement flat. That's what I have always thought, as the famous "greek-temple" style Ventilation shaft in Gibson Square N1 is no more than about 75 metres away: eibonvale.wordpress.com/2013/05/12/979/However, looking at "Geographical" maps of the Victoria Line, the route is shown as being about 200 metres away from the Gibson Square shaft, the nearest point being on the other side of Liverpool Road: www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=8a567ebac15748d39a747649a2e86cf4Actually, I can see after passing Gibson Square it does come closer to me by passing diagonally under Milner Square, (though maybe not as close as I had thought) so that explains the noise, but I'm still a little curious as to how the ventilation shaft can be apparently quite distant from the line. I'm also wondering about how much the imminent arrival of all-night Victoria Line trains will affect me, noise-wise, a matter which no-one seems to have mentioned as far as I know, though it must affect a lot of people. Welcome to the forum funken99 and many thanks for a well put first post. I'm no expert on the Victoria line but if it's any help, having lived next door to the Central Line for many years (admittedly above ground) I found that I hardly noticed the noise although visitors to our house who were unused to it often did. The engineering trains and overnight track maintenance never woke me up either as I'd became conditioned to it. It's amazing what we can blot out of our hearing if we need to! Must say Mrs tbf & I, on most holidays, have found noise from overground trains travels further up the Travel Lodge block than underground. However, we've also found that, after the first night & the inevitable getting used to a new sleeping place, noise has never been a problem, unless it's unexpected non-routine noise. So, if you're already living with noise during the day, any all-night operation would, I suspect, be blotted out of your consciousness within two or three days, because you'll just get used to it. At least one advantage will be the drunken hordes on the razzle at 3am will now hopefully be out of earshot and on the Victoria Line instead-as someone completely opposed to them, I've just realised I've given the best reason yet for having all-night tubes  -at least as long as no passenger is allowed to detrain unless they pass a silent sobriety test! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 13, 2015 15:16:42 GMT
I don't think that map is completely accurate - look at the Central Line between Shepherds Bush and White City, or the Bakerloo in the Charing Cross area (indeed CX station is shown in completely the wrong place - so it wouldn't surprise me if the Victoria Line's location were not completely accurate either ! Google maps show it passing under the square - although even that is not quite accurate at East Road - see linkie below, and compare Figs 22 and 23 - Figure 20 is perhaps the most graphic illustration though! Islington Council planning dept will have an accurate map. : |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 13, 2015 15:27:23 GMT
I don't think that map is completely accurate - look at the Central Line between Shepherds Bush and White City, or the Bakerloo in the Charing Cross area (indeed CX station is shown in completely the wrong place - so it wouldn't surprise me if the Victoria Line's location were not completely accurate either ! Google maps show it passing under the square Ditto for the Cebtral line between Gants Hill and Newbury Park. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 22:26:19 GMT
Thanks for that, I can see the ordinary Google map does seem to correspond more with reality. I also agree you do lose most awareness of the noise unless you really listen out for it, and are surprised when any visitor makes something out of it.
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Post by Chris M on Sept 14, 2015 0:19:59 GMT
Open Street Map is usually pretty accurate for the location of Underground lines. In this case it shows the tunnels passing either side of the ventilation shaft and then passing under numbers 51/50 and number 48 Gibson Square before passing under the large building and crossing over (to regain left hand running) then passing beneath numbers 7/8 and 8/9 Almeida Street.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 1:55:28 GMT
Wow, thanks so much for that Chris, that map is obviously super-accurate and show something quite different to both the arcgis.com amp and the google map. It's actually a bit shocking to see how map-makers can purport to call something accurate when it is nowhere near so, and this gives me a much better, and worthwhile idea of what lies beneath me, which is what I was looking for.
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Post by abe on Sept 14, 2015 6:32:05 GMT
Open Street Map is usually pretty accurate for the location of Underground lines.. Emphasis on the usually. Some sections of some lines are very accurate; much of the rest is good; some appears to be a best guess. Having worked from many of the original plans, and compared these with different on-line maps as part of work on a new book, I can say that one should never rely on any of the on-line maps that show the routes of underground lines. In this case, OpenStreetMap is correct through. Shafthead buildings, such as that in Gibson Square, tend to be placed close to the tunnel route to minimize the length of underground connection tunnels. |
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Post by Chris M on Sept 14, 2015 8:39:21 GMT
Wow, thanks so much for that Chris, that map is obviously super-accurate and show something quite different to both the arcgis.com amp and the google map. It's actually a bit shocking to see how map-makers can purport to call something accurate when it is nowhere near so, and this gives me a much better, and worthwhile idea of what lies beneath me, which is what I was looking for. All maps are an approximation of reality - what is more and less accurate depends on the purpose of the map and the scale. In the case of Google maps, it's mainly a road map so the road widths are exaggerated relative to the ground, although less so as you zoom in. The precise routes of the underground lines is not important for most maps, so they are shown either as simple straight lines/curves between points directly below the surface buildings or as some other shape to aid route finding (e.g. bending the tube map to fit the street layout). OSM generally tries to represent as much as possible how things appear from a satellite view/on-the-ground GPS traces, but even so compare how different features look in the different renderings available (click on the "layers" button on the right) and see for example how the width of the roads vary between them. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 14, 2015 10:34:40 GMT
In this case, OpenStreetMap is correct through. Shafthead buildings, such as that in Gibson Square, tend to be placed close to the tunnel route to minimize the length of underground connection tunnels. Notice, for example, the difference between OSM and ArcGIS in the rendering of the Jubilee Line east of Baker Street - the former passes under the air shaft in Park Crescent, the latter goes nowhere near it. The rendering of the South Kensington curves are quite different too - ArcGIS only has one reverse curve, OSM has two. And there are some impossibly sharp corners between Euston and Camden Town on ArcGIS' rendering of the City branch of the Northern. It's actually a bit shocking to see how map-makers can purport to call something accurate when it is nowhere near so, . (but remember where you read the story!) |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 10:48:02 GMT
Of all the maps that I've seen I think Google Maps is the worst when it comes to geographically accurate underground lines. I think for the most part they've just drawn straight lines between various stations. Look at the Central Line between Liverpool Street and Bethnal Green for instance, it's off by at least 500 metres.  Not that it matters much, their purpose is not to show actual underground lines. As long as the stations are in the right place. Just don't rely on them for these types of discussions... |
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Post by abe on Sept 14, 2015 16:22:18 GMT
There's a big difference betwen the lines on the "transit" overlay for Google maps, and the fainter grey lines that they use to show the routes. The latter tend to be more accurate. The transit layer is an abomination - one of the worst bits is between Wembley Park and Finchley Road, where the Met and Jubilee are widely spaced, by the best part of a mile!
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Post by Chris M on Sept 14, 2015 17:05:19 GMT
the transit layer is literally just join-the-dots (stations). As there are more dots on the Jubilee line this is closer to reality than the met, as railway between Wembley Park and Finchley Road is not a straight line.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 9:45:29 GMT
There's a big difference betwen the lines on the "transit" overlay for Google maps, and the fainter grey lines that they use to show the routes. The latter tend to be more accurate. The transit layer is an abomination - one of the worst bits is between Wembley Park and Finchley Road, where the Met and Jubilee are widely spaced, by the best part of a mile! I see, that makes sense for the reason Chris M. posted. However, in my example I was referring to the fainter grey line which is considerably off. Look on the map here and then compare it to the line's actual route which we know takes it underneath Shoreditch High Street Station and then runs underneath Bethnal Green Road. |
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Post by domh245 on Sept 15, 2015 21:33:25 GMT
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Post by howda62 on Sept 16, 2015 7:44:01 GMT
Interesting. I'm still not sure how accurate that version may be. I just made a quick look around some areas I know fairly well. Looking at Baker Street, the Jubilee line is shown running North/South but it's clear at Baker Street the Bakerloo/Jubilee alignments are almost parallel so the Jubilee should be shown running East/West at that point. Other historical maps, and carto.metro, show the Jubilee running towards Marylebone and turning northwards there.
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Post by abe on Sept 16, 2015 10:22:28 GMT
howda62: Agreed; the TfL map isn't very accurate. It's more a map with a geographic base (as opposed to the diagram that is usually seen). Unfortunately, there isn't any single definite source for geographical accuracy in this area, and there isn't anywhere thst records which source is good for each line or section of line. @maurits: that's another good example. I wasn't claiming that the faint grey lines are accurate, rather that the "transit" overlay is appalling!
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Post by djlynch on Sept 19, 2015 19:50:19 GMT
Wouldn't the TfL Property Asset Register also be useful in outlining the routes which tunnels take? I assume that the tunnels would fall within the "LUL zone of influence" shading, even though I assume that the zone of influence extends for some short distance beyond the actual tunnel walls.
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-at least as long as no passenger is allowed to detrain unless they pass a silent sobriety test!
