Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Aug 11, 2006 8:38:03 GMT
I thought I might transfer some information that might be of interest to others as I cannot find anything on the net. Basically I am wading through a 18,000 words of a draft book text, editing as I go along, about road electric vehicles. I have to say that I have found it interesting to compare the history of electrical vehicle componentry with that of Underground trains. The big difference it seems is that those who became involved with electric vehicles were originally electrical engineers, and produced all manner of equipment. I was particularly fascinated to see that thyristor control was used for road vehicles much earlier than in mainline and tube trains. Does anyone remember the 1960 Stock experimental thyristor train with the electrical symbol on the front? It was used I think on the north part of the Hainault loop? I have to say that it was before my time and I only knew about it from books when I started reading about the Underground around 1972. I used to see a 1960 Stock train at Northfields stabled where the test trains were parked...oddiities such as the CO/CP sand drag test train were parked there. Also the two 1973 Stock doubed-ended trials trains. A thyristor is a semiconductor device which acts as a switch. However, when switched on it can only pass current in one direction. It is in fact a switchable diode sometimes known as a silicon controlled rectifier. To switch alternating current two devices are connected in inverse parallel. The 1960 Tube Stock consisted of the Cravens-built DM cars and initially two pre-1938 Stock, or Standard Stock, trailers painted silver to match. These were of course replaced years later by a single 1938 Stock trailer. The thyristor is also known as the 'Chopper' and allowed I believe stepless control. The same company, Cravens Limited of Sheffield as you all know built the A60 then A62 Stock but London Transport decided to go with a modified 1959 Stock design for the Central Line from Metro-Cammell of Birmingham with trailers to make up 8-car trains sub--contracted to British Rail Derby. As regards the latter I seem to recall Piers Connor saying around 1982 that there was concern at the time about the
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Aug 11, 2006 11:31:28 GMT
A thyristor is a semiconductor device which acts as a switch. However, when switched on it can only pass current in one direction. It is in fact a switchable diode sometimes known as a silicon controlled rectifier. To switch alternating current two devices are connected in inverse parallel. Are the SCR and the thyristor the same device? I thought the SCR predated the thyristor and was a cruder device. The thyristor also has voltage-control characteristics which enabled it to be used to replace heat-generating resistors so in fact has two functions...
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Oracle
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Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
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Post by Oracle on Aug 11, 2006 14:52:59 GMT
I believe that a thyrsior is a type of SCR. I learned a lot about them trying to help my sone with his Electronics homework but have forgotten what I learned!
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Post by tubeprune on Aug 11, 2006 17:41:44 GMT
They did. The floors rusted and they all had to be re-floored.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Aug 11, 2006 19:58:50 GMT
The Thyristor unit was 3902/3,used to make a buzzing sound when starting off,it also had a monitoring unit to check for interference to the signalling system,if it detected any it shut the train down!!!Re the Derby trailers,I started on LU in'66 and the floors were already going then,was very disconcerting to sit on a traverse seat and look down and see the track flashing along
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Post by foundrylaneman on Aug 21, 2006 12:00:15 GMT
The Thyristor unit was 3902/3,used to make a buzzing sound when starting off,it also had a monitoring unit to check for interference to the signalling system,if it detected any it shut the train down!!!Re the Derby trailers,I started on LU in'66 and the floors were already going then,was very disconcerting to sit on a traverse seat and look down and see the track flashing along There was a later trial in the early 1980's with a new train, which had to operate under engineer's possessions. I used to work at Westinghouse at the time, and I worked on the monitoring unit for that, with the intentio of letting it loose over Woodford Hainault. The buzzing noise came from a large aircored inductor, which carried the traction current, and buzzed when it was chopped. Oscilloscopes and test gear would actually pick this up, and there was some comment as to whether it would affect punters with heart pacemakers - although the frequency was 384Hz as I recall. Probably it would have been best to provide those punters with a hamster wheel to run off the effects of excessive heart stimulation- or even let them power the train Fred Flintstone style, legs on the track. The buzzing corresponded to the period for which resistance would be cut into the circuit of a conventional drive. Therein lay one of the technical problems. The switching frequency was chosen to avoid interference with track circuits at 125 Hz. So we had to prove that if the drive was running, it was running at the right frequency. But when the drive was full on, the thyristors were on for 100% of the time, and there was no signal, which was indistinguishble from the sensor wires falling off. We solved this by injecting a pilot signal, giving 2 channels to monitor, with the additional requirement that if the drive was switching, it had to obliterate the pilot signal, to suit the logic requirement that a lack of pilot signal meant it was switching, in which case the switching frequency had to be detected at 384Hz, otherwise the monitoring system was broken, in which case, failsafe required a shutdown. With me so far? After that it got complicated. Someone said "What if the drive goes at 384Hz, but only switches on 2 pulses out of 3?" Actually, this is a very similar case to doing 1 out of 3, which is effectively 128Hz, within the acceptance of a track circuit, but which could still satisfy a test for 384Hz. We then designed a further channel to detect this phenomenon, biting our tongues against cursing the choice of 384Hz, although on reflection, whatever frequency was chosen, you could always say 'n out of m' and get 125Hz. I lost track of it all after that, moving onto other projects.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Aug 21, 2006 12:38:05 GMT
Thanks for that very interesting information! Tubeprune comments: ETT The 1973 Stock order included two test units equipped with solid state traction equipment and electronic control systems. These were known collectively as the ETT (Experimental Tube Train). The units were numbered 892-692-893 (delivered 1977) and 894-694-895 (delivered in 1979). They were both double-ended units. The first unit was equipped by Westinghouse, the second by GEC. Both were later converted to standard at Acton Works, the first unit entering passenger service in 1987, the second in 1986. The units were converted so as to allow additional spares when the Heathrow loop was opened.
I remember them at Northfields when I commuted in every work day. Were they not thyristor control as well?
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Post by foundrylaneman on Aug 21, 2006 13:02:12 GMT
Tubeprune comments: ETT The 1973 Stock order included two test units equipped with solid state traction equipment and electronic control systems. These were known collectively as the ETT (Experimental Tube Train). The units were numbered 892-692-893 (delivered 1977) and 894-694-895 (delivered in 1979). They were both double-ended units. The first unit was equipped by Westinghouse, the second by GEC. ...
I remember them at Northfields when I commuted in every work day. Were they not thyristor control as well? These were they, thyristor controlled. On a point of strict accuracy, the Westinghouse unit is better attrbuted to Brush, who were also part of the Hawker Siddely group, as were Westinghouse. Westinghouse only did a pair of Monitor units. We had, IIRC a prototype of a Blackpool Tram drive for our lab work, because this was variable frequency, whereas the Underground stuff was fixed frequency - we needed to be able to vary from 384Hz. We did some night tests from Northfields, some of which involved laying Teepol for wheel spin. One of the concerns was about noise from the line breakers disturbing the nearby sleeping population. Never did figure out what the line breakers were doing exactly... Our habit was to eat out and eat well, which raised some eyebrows when we put in our expenses. One night 2 managers turned up from our outfit, and proceeded to brag about having eaten on the M4 services, and about how _cheap_ and _good_ it was. We just smiled and carried on, having eaten really well ourselves, just waiting. Come about 0330, we were still bright and bushy tailed, on the back of our meal, but our mangers began to look very tired, deflated and dare I say it, insignificant. We then tucked into some sandwiches and asked them if they had any. Needless to say, they hadn't. But our expenses were not challenged again!
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Aug 21, 2006 21:01:09 GMT
892 & 894 did indeed operate in passenger service on the Hainault-Woodford shuttle.If I remember correctly 72Mk1 unit 3203 was used as a pilot unit to bring them from Ruislip to Hainault,this unit is now 3264 on the Bakerloo.
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Post by agoodcuppa on Aug 21, 2006 21:32:32 GMT
There was also a 38 unit converted to act as a pilot when moving around the system.
One of the cars (01306?) has the trial high windows and the oval casement windows.
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Post by tubeprune on Aug 22, 2006 6:04:48 GMT
It was 10306 - the date the Bakerloo was opened.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Aug 22, 2006 8:37:19 GMT
10306! The only car number I have ever remembered! Converted 1948?? into the "Sunshine Car" as we heard it called. It lived with its then sister cars in Northfields for a time and I used to see it regulalrly when I passed by on the Picc to work...was it used as part of a test train?
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Post by tubeprune on Aug 22, 2006 10:18:48 GMT
10306! The only car number I have ever remembered! Converted 1948?? into the "Sunshine Car" as we heard it called. It lived with its then sister cars in Northfields for a time and I used to see it regulalrly when I passed by on the Picc to work...was it used as part of a test train? 10306 was converted at Acton Works in November 1949 and entered service on the Bakerloo in February 1950. It went to the Northern in March 1951 and stayed there until it was withdrawn for use as a pilot unit in January 1978 to work with the 1973TS ETT unit. It was last used for that in Jan 1979 and was cut up at Ruislip in March 1980.
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Oracle
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Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
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Post by Oracle on Aug 22, 2006 11:28:49 GMT
TP, do you agree that there was a moot afoot to preserve 10306?
The time when it was at Northfields would coincide with me commuting to Piccadily Circus from Hounslow West as I went to Bristol Poly Feb 1979.
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Post by tubeprune on Aug 22, 2006 13:19:40 GMT
Oracle, you are correct. There was a move (as well as a moot) to preserve 10306 but it was not considered worthwhile as it was not representative of the stock and, anyway, it leaked like a watering can.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Aug 22, 2006 13:36:10 GMT
And for our youngers viewers..... (10306 in service)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 14:24:49 GMT
Oooh, the affectionately named, Sunshine Car!!!
Not many pictures around of this particular car.... That photo must have been taken around Watford
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Aug 22, 2006 18:54:37 GMT
That photo must have been taken around Watford Bl**dy close - Carpender's park!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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