D Stock or S Stock

From a driver's perspective, I would say 90% of drivers prefer the S stock. The first thing most drivers ask when they book on is wether any of their trains for the day are S stock.

I would also say that surprisingly, the more senior drivers prefer S stock over the younger less experienced ones. In my experience as an instructor, the older drivers got used to the touch screen technology much more quickly than the younger ones.......thing is, you tend to tap your phone or ipad rather than touching it, don't you?! Becuase the train prefers you to touch slowly rather than tap quickly, the older guys natrually got on better with it.

Personally, I do like them but they are aren't as a good as they could have been. The biggest issue is that we can't see right hand side platforms properly, so if the worst were to happen chances you may not see it and react appropriately - the issue is even worse at the likes of Tower Hill westbound, especially with the stop chevron on the opposite side to the platform!

Then there's the rear trip. It dosen't bother us when we're driving from the front on a D stock (we only have to deal with any issues when we change ends and it becomes the front) but on a S stock the rear trip is very much in play, just like it was on C stock. The difference between the S and C stocks is that on a C you had to go back and reset it; on the S stock, we can reset it in the leading cab. Down side is as soon as you reset you are forced into slow speed for 3 minutes. Its therefore a backward step from D stock.

We have the ability to view the in car CCTV when a passenger emergency alarm button is operated, but it soo sssslooooow to appear its not much use.

We have electric wipers on the S stock. Why don't we have an intermittant option?

The cab seat is an issue thats subject to ongoing work between the company and Union H&S representatives.

On C & D stocks we had the ability to leave the radio handset in its cradle whilst communicating with the line controller/signaller/depot staff/etc - that meant as an instructor I could monitor what was being said. This facility is not available on S stock so when a trainee is handling the comms I have no idea what the third party is saying and thus no idea whether the trainee has understood what is being said.

The sun blinds are next to useless when the sun is low as they're not made of a solid material.

And of course on C & D stocks you can have the offside door open for proper fresh air. Because S stock is capable of ATO operation, both cab doors must remain shut whilst in motion so we're 100% reliant on the air conditioning system working correctly.

Its not all bad though! I can comfortably stand up whilst driving thanks to the high cab windows. Defect handling is easier and the handle used to drive the train is easier to operate meaning less work on the wrist. We now have in cab CCTV whilst the train departs the platform so we can see ourselves out fully and because drivers have the ability to open any individual door whilst stood next it inside the train, a recent passenger alarm incident I had on a D stock would have been far far easier to deal with had it been an S stock. Braking in the rain is a breeze thanks to the wheel slide protection system.

So yeah, its not perfect but as a whole package the S stock does offer a number of improvements over the rolling stock its replacing.

I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with you regarding the acceleration of the trains. D stock, I can quite comfortably walk through the train when it is accelerating away from a station (within the individual car of course!) whilst with the S stock, you can really feel it accelerate away and I often find myself leaning forward to try and retain my balance when walking though.

I've often wondered about the tip-out procedure on the 2 stocks. I would imagine it is easier on the older stocks, but I would be interested to hear what those who do it think!

But don't worry, some of the problems might be fixed in 20 years when they go through refurb, and if not then, you can fix them for the next SSL fleet in however many years. I hear that sticking the word consultant after your name lets you charge a hefty sum!

It does take slightly longer on S stock, but I've had a lot less bother with an S stock late at night at Upminster. On that basis, S stock edges it for me despite the extra few seconds it takes.

I'm surprised at the comment regarding acceleration. The S stock definitely are quicker off the mark than the D's, and will probably be even quicker when ATO eventually arrives.

Whilst You are quite correct in pointing out that the S stock acceleration rate is currently pegged back to match D stock, S stock is still quicker to move off from a standing start.

The reason is that D stock brakes are slow to release. We teach drivers to briefly pause in off & release before motoring to give the brakes a chance to come off though some of the old boys still insist on leaving the TBC in a position that means they try to motor off from a standing start with the emergency brakes applied.....so it takes the train even longer to get going.

S stock by contrast immediately dumps all the air out of the brakes as soon as you pick up the handle and pass through off & release, so the effect is instant motoring with no resistance from the brakes still coming off.

S stock by a mile. I got the first one ever from Upminster, and after a few weeks I started getting train 62 every morning (Barring the cancellations from the current industrial action) and getting in early just to be on one rather than D78.

I do love the D78s, but going every day on S Stock is a lot better journey. The smoothness of the ride quality is remarkable, and they get up to speed very well. The amount of room for standing passengers also makes it less of a hassle when getting off.

Well it's an interesting question. When I'm driving a car, I don't have hundreds of standing passengers behind me, so it doesn't matter so much if I vary the brake rate, or do not stop very smoothly.

I also don't have to stop particularly accurately, generally speaking, and if I choose to edge forwards a little when parking it's not very embarrassing and nor will it hold up any cars behind me. So the extent to which I'm very bothered about the difference between 40% of braking effort and 50% is very little, because if I pull up 50 cm too short, it's not going to make any difference. If I pull up 50 cm too late, that obviously would be more of a problem, but stepping very hard on the brakes in the last few moments will just be a little bit uncomfortable for me and maybe a passenger or two; whereas if train drivers make a habit of this, it may not foster their career development.

So here again I'm quite interested to see which is preferable, because like I say in the premise of my question I can see advantages to both. It must be nice to have fine-grained control over how much braking effort you command. On the other hand, the difference between too much and too little could be a very small difference in the position of the TBC in some cases and I would think it's quite handy to have discrete notches you can slot into and have a good idea how much brake effort you're going to get. Or, at least, that's how things are in my mind, but I've never actually a manipulated the controls of a train, so I don't know. When I watch video125's videos, it sounds like the TBC is moved quite a lot and I recall seeing a Piccadilly line T/Op moving rapidly between notches. At the same time, I also remember seeing a Bakerloo line T/Op regularly leaving the handle in a position for the last few seconds so that it will stop with an absolutely constant amount of brakes, which seems quite nice if you want a super smooth ride. It also seems to demonstrate an ability to identify a point where you can say: from now on, this amount of brakes will do. Whereas, with a brake pedal on a car, I may think it's in just the right place, but actually it's a little bit higher than I wanted it and so I have to brake a bit more, but then I brake too much and it's not so good. If I could select braking level 1, that might actually help me to stop more accurately, because I know what I'm getting. But it may make me less accurate as well, because if I select braking level 1 half a second too late I'm going to stop in the wrong place and it won't be so easy to add just enough brakes.

The car is also much less affected by gradients and things like that, so it seems like I would have to take more into account when stopping a train. Of course, it means that brakes level 1 at Embankment eastbound may not be the same as brakes level 1 at Earl's Court westbound, so here I might like more control than could be achieved with notches. But then, if I learn the road really well, I'll be able to say: when I get to this point I go to level 1 and that'll get me in exactly the right place. Although, of course, it doesn't always work like that, because some trains will have better brakes and on some occasions I'm going to have more passengers.

But for me, I mean, does not a train have a lot lot more inertia? So varying the amount of brakes you use on a train makes a big difference to ride quality, you can easily feel it can't you? This doesn't come into play in quite the same way with a car, I would not notice so much if I changed the amount by which I braked by a small amount, because I don't have five carriages full of people pushing on me as I try to slow down.

As a passenger I genuinely find it interesting. It can be quite obvious on the Bakerloo line, for example. You can feel the changes between steps quite easily and it can be a little uncomfortable when you start swaying and you can feel the driver switching between notch one and coast as the train approaches the stopping mark and you think how great it would be if there was some way of choosing notch 0.5 or notch 0.125 and then you wouldn't have to keep putting the brakes on and taking them off again. But, on the other hand, with the S stock, I actually feel like I notice a bit of a difference. Maybe it's all in my head, or maybe it has less to do with TBC and more to do with the train, I'm really not sure. But you can the train rock as the brakes seem to be applied and then eased off and then maybe a little more brakes and then maybe a little less. I used to find it quite common on the northern Circle to get most of the way into the platform and then we'd coast slowly up to the stopping mark and then brake actually quite hard. And I never used to experience this so much on the old A and C stocks, or maybe I just didn't notice it. But they felt like trains that were stopping - at least in the final few feet - with the same amount of braking force. Which was nice. On the other hand, on the Central line, the 1992 stock often stop exquisitely smoothly in Coded in the last few feet, soft as anything. However, on the way down to 0 kph, it's quite common to detect a kind of swaying as - I presume - the brake rate is altered. On the Northern with the 1995 stock again it was always very nice under tripcock protection.

Similarly with keeping speed. Obviously, if you've got a handful of discrete power settings, it's not so easy to maintain exactly 30 mph. You might coast down to 28 mph and then go to notch one and after a few seconds you're back at 32 mph and you have to coast again and it's not great. Interestingly, it's quite rare for me to notice this happening. But it would seem very nice to be able to select an exact amount of power to maintain an exact speed. On the other hand, it also seems like it would be nice to select a notch and be able to keep it there and draw the same amount of power every time.

In a car, it is genuinely hard for me to say. I feel like I could be a lot smoother with notches, but a lot more accurate with pedals. But I've never really experienced driving with notches outside the world of OpenBVE and I've not done much driving with pedals, either, as I failed my test five years ago and haven't been in a car since, really. So I can't really compare, which is why I'm interested in what the pros prefer.

My personal view is that I don't think it makes that much difference, the driver will adapt to whatever type of controls the train has, and drive accordingly.

On a 95 stock, I tend to drive as if the TBC has notches. Before TBTC I tended to use half motors for the first couple of seconds when starting off, then I wouldn't ever use any other motoring position other than full motors, so the TBC being notchless was irrelevant for motoring. Some drivers reverted to the 'shunt' position after building up speed, but this was more to do with hand comfort than anything else. Under TBTC I use full motors for gaining speed, and generally the shunt position to maintain speed where necessary, full motoring now being too much for this since the motors are now uncapped. Note when I refer to the 'shunt' position, this is *not* the same as on older stocks. As far as braking goes, notches or otherwise, the most important thing for me is how good the full service position is on that particular train. I normally go straight to full service, and partially release / re-apply as necessary, whether the train has notches or not wouldn't make that much difference, the result is the same.

One thing I have noticed is that S stock often seems to produce very jerky motoring and braking compared to all other stocks (perhaps except C stock). I've never driven an S stock, but I've often wondered if the physically small size of the TBC makes it harder for the driver to control the train smoothly. Perhaps those who have driven S stock can comment on this? The joystick appearance of the TBC looks very awkward to me, but perhaps it's not as bad as it looks?

One thing to add, is that on the post 92 stocks, it's possible to go from full motors to less without having to go via 'off & release' (or a rail gap!). Whilst this may sound like an advantage, perhaps I drive in an old fashioned way, but even though a 95 stock has the ability to do it, I'd say it's a feature I very rarely, if ever, utilise.

Thanks Colin, that explains a lot!

Grown up with D Stock. It'll always be D Stock for me.

While there are obvious qualities that make the S Stock more superior (e.g. the air conditioning, walk-through, improved accessibility and more capacity) I still find the D Stock to have a more comfortable interior. Not only do I prefer the seating on the D Stock but also colour scheme makes for a better ambiance; I find the S stock.s to be too bright and too yellow! The D Stock's on-board announcements are far easier on the ear, as are the door opening chimes.

Hmmmm...I'm still not sold on the walk-through carriages. I know they're basically a necessity on the S stock because otherwise the SDO could be a real problem. But you don't get the breeze through the windows in the interconnecting doors, so if the air-conditioning ever fails in the summer, it's not gonna be very much fun in there.

I also see the benefits of not being sealed in a carriage with someone, but, on the other hand, you can no longer move to another carriage to escape someone more mildly intimidating. I sometimes feel more exposed and more vulnerable, especially on an emptier train, when there are walk-through carriages, because anybody on the train could easily be a nuisance to anybody else on the train. I've had kids messing around on the train, doing tricks on the handrails, using their scooters, running and jumping, and you can't get away from it.

However, moving to another carriage isn't always such a good tactic, and you have to wait until the next stop, so I am prepared to accept that an open train, where you're more likely to be visible and audible to more people is perhaps better. But I'm not sure it's open-and-shut.

Of course, I do also always value the ability to not be in the same carriage as a screaming toddler or a rowdy bunch, but this is obviously much less important than cutting down on serious crime.

I was under the impression it also made it harder to couple and uncouple and shunt cars and units around and be flexible.

I too know some of these people, and I too find it quite bizarre! I also know quite a few people who do notice but think 'oh it's a Circle line train today'.

As to my preference... the grass is always greener; when a D approaches I want the S, and vice versa! Can't make up my mind. I do appreciate the benefits of walk-through at terminus stations though. Particularly during a delay. With the S you can nearly always grab at seat at the other end, with the D, everyone packs together by the rear door.