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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 1:53:41 GMT
Well, it's almost that time again, and I'm naturally anticipating the usual arguments, nonsense posts, tweets and Facebook statuses about the strike extravaganza. Being the local tube nerd, of course, I am perhaps the one people seek out when they want to have an argument about it  Now, as Tubeboy has already explained, the forthcoming strike has very little (if anything) to do with tube drivers' wages. But, of course, that's always the argument people want to have, witness this - um - quite misrepresentative table from last time (nicely debunked). And then there's always the "well, if I was being paid £50k a year to push buttons, I wouldn't complain about changes to Ts & Cs" argument. So, that's my motivation for this post. However, I'm hoping that some of the information here could serve as useful general reference. Indeed, since the forthcoming strike has very little (if anything) to do with tube drivers' wages, much of this won't be expressly relevant to tomorrow's strike - but I'm tired of fielding the drivers' wages question every time there's industrial action on the tube, even if drivers and/or their wages aren't involved. What I'm looking for, then, is numbers - cold statistics and facts. Because a lot of the time I have these arguments, but neither me, nor my adversary, actually has the figures - and I would like them. So, to business, the basic question is: how do I respond to the perennial "why do tube drivers earn so much" question/defence/attack/whinge? Any additional points would be welcome, but I tend to focus on the following sort of thing - I just lack data, I lack numbers: - It's industry standard. To flesh this out, what I'd really like to know is the wage for a T/Op and the wage for an I/Op. But I'd especially be interested in comparison with the TOCs. I'm looking for any information on wages with mainline TOCs, as well as comparison of benefits and working hours, that sort of thing. So that, instead of just saying "it's industry standard", I can say: true an LU T/Op earns £49,000 a year (invented sum), but over on First they earn £52,000, get Sundays off and everyone's entitled to a free Mars bar (again invented). Or, perhaps, yes LU T/Ops earn £59,000 a year, but over on Southern they earn a similar amount (£55,000). Whatever the case may be. I know I pose this from a fairly biased point of view, but I'd actually like some facts to inform my own opinion - not just to serve as ballast.
- The training. People often say you're paid not for the day-to-day work, but for the knowledge you have and for the ability to deal with things when they go wrong. So I'd like some kind of demonstration of this. How long is the training period? What's the pass rate? That sort of thing. The main site does handle this pretty well, but I've a feeling it's a little out of date now. One little nugget of information I thought could be quite useful to mention is the books, manuals and materials you have to carry with you. version3point1 touched on this in an unrelated post and I was looking for more details. Specifically, how long are those books? How many pages does average Joe train operator need to carry around with them?
- Shift work and the rosters. Now this. This is more relevant to this particular strike. I was wondering if anybody would be willing to talk a little bit more about what a working week is like, how that affects the body, how that might differ from - or be similar to - that of, say, a doctor and how night tube is going to affect that.
- The failure of direct recruitment campaigns also gets brought up a lot to. Ergo: the job ain't as easy or attractive as it seems from behind the Evening Standard. But I don't have the actual figures behind the word "failure".
Now, I realise I'm asking a lot, there, so please, feel free to contribute as much or as little as you want. The tl;dr is this: I'm looking for any and all statistics (I'm particularly after numbers, just numbers, cold, honest data) relevant to: (a) arguments about strikes and particularly the night tube strike coming up and (b) the drivers' wage bill.
Also, I focus on drivers because it fits in so nicely with the media's little agenda that they always frame disputes as being about drivers and their wages. And not a strike goes by when the wage bill doesn't come up; and then the inevitable driverless trains spiel will surely follow. Never mind the fact that if every single driver booked on tomorrow, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference if the power control people all walk out. However, I'd be very happy if any other LU people - station staff, signal people, control room staff and, esp., anyone affected by night tube - wanted to chip in with similar statistics for themselves. How much do station staff earn? How does that compare to staff on the mainline? How long is the training period for a service operator? How will night tube shifts affect the lives of shunters? Etc. etc.
Once again - as much or as little information as you want to give.
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on Aug 7, 2015 10:09:02 GMT
An average tube driver’s salary is £49,673.
An I OP, I believe, is +1000
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Aug 7, 2015 11:22:12 GMT
Re the people who say £50,000 a year just for pulling a lever & pushing buttons,tell them that when T/Op recruitment was thrown open to people on the street the drop out rate was 65%.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 7, 2015 11:43:34 GMT
Re the people who say £50,000 a year just for pulling a lever & pushing buttons,tell them that when T/Op recruitment was thrown open to people on the street the drop out rate was 65%. Well, all those highly paid banking traders do is push buttons. They don't even have to cope with levers. Additionally, people rarely throw themselves in front of trading terminals - and if they did the result would be a lot less traumatic for all concerned. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 7, 2015 18:44:58 GMT
It's industry standard. To flesh this out, what I'd really like to know is the wage for a T/Op and the wage for an I/Op. But I'd especially be interested in comparison with the TOCs. I'm looking for any information on wages with mainline TOCs, as well as comparison of benefits and working hours, that sort of thing. So that, instead of just saying "it's industry standard", I can say: true an LU T/Op earns £49,000 a year (invented sum), but over on First they earn £52,000, get Sundays off and everyone's entitled to a free Mars bar (again invented). Or, perhaps, yes LU T/Ops earn £59,000 a year, but over on Southern they earn a similar amount (£55,000). Whatever the case may be. This information is available on ASLEF's website (CLICK HERE). Whilst it does seem to be ever so slightly incorrect for reasons I'm not sure of, it lists LU drivers pay as £48,133. A few comparisons of nearby operators: c2c pay £45,206, Chiltern pay £49,357, London Overground pay £50,000 and Southern pay £47,500 so we're on a par in that department. However, it should be bourne in mind that most TOC's have rest day working on Sundays - LU drivers cannot work any pre-planned overtime whatsoever. The training. People often say you're paid not for the day-to-day work, but for the knowledge you have and for the ability to deal with things when they go wrong. So I'd like some kind of demonstration of this. How long is the training period? What's the pass rate? That sort of thing. Drivers, for example, have two weeks on rules & procedures. They have to learn them and be able to carry them out at a moments notice without referring to any notes or other reference documents. Without pausing to look it up, they have to be able to carry out a wrong direction move (two different versions), set back, pass through a failure area applying the correct procedure for the type of signal concerned (again two versions) - and know when its safe to resume normal working - they have to know the various methods of safely passing over points under failure conditions (I can readily think of 5 different procedures) then there's leap frogging, single line working (locked in or not locked in) and point to point working. They have to know what to do if they over carry somebody into a siding, what the rules are for train radio failure, what the three different coded emergency radio messages mean, all of the various emergency stop signals, hand signals, and the various methods of using a train for protection. I could go on! They get a week to learn the rolling stock (if more than one stock its a week for each one). Much like with the rules & procedures they have to learn what makes the train work, and how to get around defects when they occur (easy to say - the reality is much harder of course). Furthermore, they have to learn how the rolling stock fits alongside the rules & procedures. The whole course is 16 weeks and IMO as well as that of all Instructor's, its nowhere near long enough. I had 20 weeks when I did it and that was far more appropriate. I should add that they get about 8 weeks actual driving time, and aside from a week of "hiking" (walking round depots and sidings looking at moves and walking routes), they have to spend the 8 week driving period not only learning how to drive a train but also recapping all of the rules & procedures and rolling stock stuff as well as learning their line - all of the reversing moves, controlled areas and who signals them and other line characteristics like speed limits, plungers to clear signals, traction current sections (and any special plungers), special station opening times, location of train technicians, etc, etc. I don't know what the pass/fail rate is in terms of the selection process (though I'd be surprised if 50/50 wasn't a good shout). I can say that my first time pass rate for road tests is 66% and most other I/O's are in that ball park. Like I say, once a driver is on their own, they have have to able to carry out the correct defect action, rule book procedure or know a given speed limit without thinking about it. Never mind the fact they've got the safety of up to 1,000 people to look after as well. Shift work and the rosters. Now this. This is more relevant to this particular strike. I was wondering if anybody would be willing to talk a little bit more about what a working week is like, how that affects the body, how that might differ from - or be similar to - that of,a doctor and how night tube is going to affect that. At Upminster we do weeks of lates followed by two weeks of earlies on the roster. Some drivers do permanent earlies or lates. Other depots have middle turns as well and can work "week about" - one week earlies followed by one week lates then back to one week earlies, etc. Stations tend to work the "week about" model. Working week is Sunday to Saturday - this means its possible to get a 4 day long weekend by combining the rest days from two separate weeks, but the pay off is you have to work 7 days (or sometimes 8) on the trot either side. Annual leave is allocated in 4 two week blocks, one block in each season (station staff get a 3 week block in the summer as they have 52 days total entitlement). The issue with night tube is, for example, the proposal to work lates up to Thursday night, nights on Friday & Saturday nights, rest day Sunday and then earlies from the Monday. How can the Sunday be counted as a rest day when you finish at 7 or 8 am and you're back to work in 22 or 23 hours! Other proposals are finishing at 3.30am on Friday & Saturday nights or starting at 3am on Saturday & Sunday mornings. Aside from this destroying work life balance, its way outside the agreements we currently have in place which state late duties must finish by 1.30am and earlies may not start before 4.45am. Changes to current agreements, rostering parameters and terms of employment must be a negotiated where a Union is recognised by an employer - LU have completely and utterly failed on this point. The failure of direct recruitment campaigns also gets brought up a lot to. Ergo: the job ain't as easy or attractive as it seems from behind the Evening Standard. But I don't have the actual figures behind the word "failure". The point here is that shift work takes getting used to. If you've never done it before, your body will be in for a major shock never mind your family and social life. Not only that, but working bank holidays whilst all your friends and family are off work can be unpleasant. As I mentioned above, your annual leave is allocated. If you want particular dates you have to find a willing person to swap dates with. Friends and family invariably have to accept the dates you have allocated rather than the other way round. And you can't simply swap a few days from week and some from another - its whole weeks only. You also have to think about work even when you're not there. Can you go to work with a hangover? We can't on LU - its zero tolerance when you book on and they do carry out random testing as well as testing post incident. Hope that lot helps   |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2015 19:28:12 GMT
Very much, thank you for taking the time  |
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Post by revupminster on Aug 7, 2015 19:40:20 GMT
This was the shift pattern most supervisors worked. Don't know if it is still the same.
E= 0700-1500 mon-sat; 0700-1900 sun
L= 1500-2300 mon-sat
N= 2300-0700 mon-sat; 1900-0700 sun
R= rest day
..........S M T W T F S
week 1 E E E E E R R
week 2 R R N N N N N
week 3 N N R R L L L
week 4 R L L L R E E
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Post by version3point1 on Aug 21, 2015 16:15:20 GMT
Talking about books: Depends what line you're going to work on. And it really is all personal preference what you carry with you, but you still have to learn it, and eventually know it.
You know what a timetable looks like – you're expected to have one of those and know how to read one. Naturally.
At present, we've nearly two dozen rule books, but not all of them are to do with us. I honestly couldn't tell you how many pages one essentially has to retain. All I know is that what we're expected to retain comes in a large, cumbersome box that weighs about a kilo.
Some drivers will carry their full issued set (minus the cumbersome box) – it's entirely personal preference and how confident that person is. For example, I carry 4, 5, 6, & 7, which are all to do with Safety Critical movements of trains in exceptional circumstances, emergency procedures and other things. I carry them because they not only list out a procedure with regards to what is expected of me, but what is expected of other people who will be involved. And quite frankly, I don't trust other people in authority to always do the correct thing..
If you're on the District or the Bakerloo lines, where you cross onto NR infrastructure, and where you're expected to follow their rules and regulations, so on these lines you would learn their Working Over books, where there are many differences in train working and the hierarchy of command compared to LU.
If we're talking stock books: On the Met, the course handbook for S stock is just short of 200 pages, many of which are diagrams. You're not expected to carry this – I can probably think of one person who does, but he's an Instructor. Most people will carry their defect book (again, personal preference), and that's about 65-70 pages worth of content that just consists of flowcharts, as well as all-important prompts for detrainment / assistance of another train on the line, with the information being relevant to that line's stock.
There's also a line supplement, which varies from line to line in content, but it's not a leaflet or anything like that. It's essentially holds the same amount of content as the average rule book, but with specifics to the line. Then there's the line info book, which is all about the moves you can do on a line, with supporting diagrams for each location. Some lines, like the Central line, have their line info/supplement/defect book rolled into one.
As for when things go wrong. I had two scenarios that I was going to post on here, but I've PM'd you instead.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 22, 2015 10:48:51 GMT
Lots of useful info Colin and co. It made me laugh the other day when a journalist said that he could learn how to be a T / Op in around 4 hours!
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 22, 2015 15:17:20 GMT
You can probably learn to drive a train in around 4 hours, but only if you don't include learning routes, identifying and resolving defects, procedures, etc that are an integral part of a t/op's job.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 17:03:47 GMT
Has anyone thought about an Iphone App for drivers, which has all the data they need at their fingertips, instead of carrying around bulky manuals - This idea should be an immediate improvement - why did no one think of it before?  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 17:39:25 GMT
An iPhone app would be totally inappropriate, can you imagine trying to access technical diagrams or tables on an iPhone? A tablet has certainly been mooted, but it's like everything, there are advantages and disadvantages. Even tablet screens aren't quite as good for viewing large diagrams as an A4 print out. Although you might be able to zoom in for even higher levels of detail (improvement over A4 print out), it'd be hard to view the whole diagram at once at an acceptable level of zoom. You'd have to issue all staff with expensive tablets (should pay for itself after a while, though). Tablets are a lot, lot more flimsy and breakable and losable. And then you've got all the usual arguments between paper and screen reading. I think screens are great for the environment and our forests (although they require electricity and often all kinds of materials which have to be filthily taken out of the ground and processed), but I prefer reading a printed page. I can tell you one thing for nowt though - a book is never gonna run out of battery.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 22, 2015 18:57:56 GMT
Flimsy and breakable would be the easiest of those to overcome I expect, given that ruggedised tablets exist that are designed to cope with harsher environments (although they are more expensive than regular ones). Expense (and risk of loss) could be minimised by having one tablet per duty rather than one per staff (with appropriate spares of course) and it being the job of someone in the train crew depot to ensure that everyone gets one when they book on and hand it back when they book off, and to ensure that all of them are appropriately charged (a bit like radio handsets I guess). However, alternative copies would need to be available for staff to refer to when not on duty though.
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Post by MoreToJack on Aug 22, 2015 21:07:27 GMT
I'd say drivers getting tablets will happen before too long. It's happening on the mainline and all station staff are in the process of being issued with an iPad Mini as we move into the Brave New World...
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on Aug 23, 2015 0:20:28 GMT
Has anyone thought about an Iphone App for drivers, which has all the data they need at their fingertips, instead of carrying around bulky manuals - This idea should be an immediate improvement - why did no one think of it before? Any driver found using a phone or any similar hand held device in the cab, will be subject to a disciplinary or even dismissal. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 23, 2015 3:11:38 GMT
Has anyone thought about an Iphone App for drivers, which has all the data they need at their fingertips, instead of carrying around bulky manuals - This idea should be an immediate improvement - why did no one think of it before? Yes someone has thought about it. They developed it and its freely available on both the Apple store and Google Play. Certainly for C & D stocks plus District line specific information anyway. In fact most drivers also have an app on their phones that uses Trackernet data to locate their trains. Duty books are freely available in PDF form.......I have all the District line ones on my phone.........in fact any document in PDF can added to my library. Any driver found using a phone or any similar hand held device in the cab, will be subject to a disciplinary or even dismissal. hobbayne is quite right though (unless its an emergency, then mobile phones become a valid means of communuication if all else fails). If drivers were issued with iPads there would have to be a major change to the rule book. |
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Post by version3point1 on Aug 23, 2015 12:34:57 GMT
Most publications now are available in PDF format, including timetables, rule books, duty-related data (anything published by Scheduling Services) can be accessed remotely via Network Improvement or Scheduling Services Sharepoint sites. For the former, you will need to apply with access, and for the latter, you access via your normal work email details. Stock-related publications can be found on the e-learning site.
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Post by version3point1 on Aug 23, 2015 13:06:12 GMT
Just a few random statistics that I've managed to find in a pile of books.
A 2012 report published by ASLEF saw the union approach Northern Rail, LUL and ScotRail with a pro forma questionnaire about their recruitment and selection arrangements. Sorry if it goes on about the ladies a bit, but it's a report about diversity in the train driving workforce.
Report also goes on about the last external recruitment campaign a little bit. There were 4-5 internal recruitment campaigns over the 2007/8 period. There was an external campaign in 2008, which resulted in 10,000 applications. (And there is a brief mention of the 2001 Cosmopolitan Magazine advertisement, where the majority of the women readers passed on the adverts to their husbands and partners, ha.) It was the trade unions and management who came to the agreement to recruit externally in 2008, as it was predicted that not enough train operators could be sourced from the internal pool in the timescales required. However, it turns out they didn't need to do the external drive after all.
The company are satisfied with an internal promotions policy. It just works as far as they're concerned.
M. Robison, On Track with Diversity 2012, ASLEF, 2012, p. 21-23
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