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Post by A60stock on Jul 8, 2015 18:59:38 GMT
Not sure if anyone else has noticed this but the s8 acceleration of some units seems to have increased on the met main, looks like more are receiving the upgrade each day. Can anyone confirm? Is this to match the s7?
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Post by t697 on Jul 8, 2015 19:16:03 GMT
This modification increases the initial acceleration everywhere Finchley Road and North of there. South of there already has this initial acceleration. This gives a few seconds advantage on most interstation runs, which gives better recovery margins or more timetable flexibility, prior to the full performance with ATC. The mod now is possible because power supply upgrades were done in preparation for S stock and ATC so the old low acceleration that A stock had 'flag up' is no longer necessary to keep within power supply capability. It's only the intial acceleration so the trains remain compatible with the existing signalling.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 10:38:47 GMT
I'll have to come up for a ride now. Is the full 62 mph permitted anywhere ?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 14, 2015 12:56:32 GMT
Line speed maximum 60mph, only in certain sections.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 7:05:55 GMT
I seem to remember a memorable one off A Stock ride that went a bit faster than this, allegedly!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 12:13:52 GMT
Still missing the A stock
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 15, 2015 23:00:36 GMT
Does this mean that the lines are now energised at 750V?
Simon
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 15, 2015 23:05:44 GMT
I seem to remember a memorable one off A Stock ride that went a bit faster than this, allegedly! Allegedly.
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Post by philthetube on Jul 15, 2015 23:58:03 GMT
I am sure that if you tried you could find an S stock where the driver topped 60 in error. The 62 mph is the speed where the motors stop working, the train would be able to go faster downhill.
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Post by t697 on Jul 16, 2015 4:59:08 GMT
Does this mean that the lines are now energised at 750V? Simon No, not yet. But Regenerative braking can raise the voltage near to 790V. The nominal 750V supply is still to come, to support ATC performance in some areas. The present tweak to S8 trains only affects about 0-17mph
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 16, 2015 21:25:46 GMT
Does this mean that the lines are now energised at 750V? Simon No, not yet. But Regenerative braking can raise the voltage near to 790V. The nominal 750V supply is still to come, to support ATC performance in some areas. The present tweak to S8 trains only affects about 0-17mph Thanks. Simon
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2015 19:08:21 GMT
I am sure that if you tried you could find an S stock where the driver topped 60 in error. The 62 mph is the speed where the motors stop working, the train would be able to go faster downhill. How likely is that to happen out of interest ? The most I've ever gone is 2 mph over and then only for a few seconds.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 12:00:57 GMT
I am sure that if you tried you could find an S stock where the driver topped 60 in error. The 62 mph is the speed where the motors stop working, the train would be able to go faster downhill. How likely is that to happen out of interest ? The most I've ever gone is 2 mph over and then only for a few seconds. Not a driver but I believe if you were to coast downhill after motoring to as fast as the motors will let you, the train will go faster
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 3, 2015 13:15:36 GMT
How likely is that to happen out of interest ? The most I've ever gone is 2 mph over and then only for a few seconds. Not a driver but I believe if you were to coast downhill after motoring to as fast as the motors will let you, the train will go faster That sounds very unlikely for the sort of gradients that occur on railway lines, given that the motors will drive the train pretty fast on the level.
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Post by MoreToJack on Sept 3, 2015 14:40:35 GMT
Bronzeonion is correct.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 3, 2015 16:19:43 GMT
Not a driver but I believe if you were to coast downhill after motoring to as fast as the motors will let you, the train will go faster That sounds very unlikely for the sort of gradients that occur on railway lines, given that the motors will drive the train pretty fast on the level. It is my understanding that (subject to any governer) the maximum speed or "balancing speed" of any powered vehicle is the speed at which the power delivered to the wheels equals the drag of the train (rolling resistance, aerodynamic, gravity). In an electric motor the power that can be delivered is limited by the back emf, (the electricity generated in the motor as it tries to be a dynamo) which increases with motor speed - thus there comes a point where the back EMF generated by the motor balances the force trying to turn the motor. This is akin to terminal velocity foe a skydiver - the faster you fall, the greater the wind resistance until you reach a speed at which the wind resistance balances the force of gravity and you stop accelerating. Just as a skydiver uses a parachute to increase wind resistance (drag) and thus reduce his terminal velocity to something survivable, the magnitude of the drag of the train, and therefor the balancing speed, will depend on a number of factors, notably aerodynamics (greater wind resistance in tunnels), rolling resistance (generally greater for heavier trains) and gravity. Thus the balancing speed will depend on all these factors, and unless governed, an electric train should go faster downhill than up. (*The back EMF can be reduced by reducing the field strength, hence the "weak field" settings which improve maximum speed at the expense of low-speed acceleration. www.vnerr.com/training/intro_loco_app.pdf
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Post by philthetube on Sept 3, 2015 16:25:41 GMT
S stock will continue to accelerate downhill from Amersham once past maximum speed for the motors. it is quite steep though
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 3, 2015 16:27:15 GMT
Not a driver but I believe if you were to coast downhill after motoring to as fast as the motors will let you, the train will go faster That sounds very unlikely for the sort of gradients that occur on railway lines, given that the motors will drive the train pretty fast on the level. For an unpowered (coasting) train to accelerate down a gradient, the gradient need only be steep enough for gravity to overcome rolling resistance. This is true whether it is accelerating from rest or from 60mph. Rolling resistance may be greater at 60mph than at walking pace, but there are plenty of railway gradients steep enough for this to happen. This is why, I understand, trains are allowed to go up Shap faster than they are allowed to go down - it talks longer to stop going downhill because you are fighting gravity instead of working with it.
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Post by plasmid on Sept 3, 2015 20:32:39 GMT
Central Line trains were originally designed to be motored to 60mph and then coast downhill to 70mph and they aren't exactly aerodynamic/stable so no reason why the S stock couldn't.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 23:43:50 GMT
Not a driver but I believe if you were to coast downhill after motoring to as fast as the motors will let you, the train will go faster That sounds very unlikely for the sort of gradients that occur on railway lines, given that the motors will drive the train pretty fast on the level. Something to do with the motors acting as a speed limiters once theyve reached theyre maximum limit, coast and then the motors are not stopping you from going faster.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 23:45:11 GMT
That sounds very unlikely for the sort of gradients that occur on railway lines, given that the motors will drive the train pretty fast on the level. It is my understanding that (subject to any governer) the maximum speed or "balancing speed" of any powered vehicle is the speed at which the power delivered to the wheels equals the drag of the train (rolling resistance, aerodynamic, gravity). In an electric motor the power that can be delivered is limited by the back emf, (the electricity generated in the motor as it tries to be a dynamo) which increases with motor speed - thus there comes a point where the back EMF generated by the motor balances the force trying to turn the motor. This is akin to terminal velocity foe a skydiver - the faster you fall, the greater the wind resistance until you reach a speed at which the wind resistance balances the force of gravity and you stop accelerating. Just as a skydiver uses a parachute to increase wind resistance (drag) and thus reduce his terminal velocity to something survivable, the magnitude of the drag of the train, and therefor the balancing speed, will depend on a number of factors, notably aerodynamics (greater wind resistance in tunnels), rolling resistance (generally greater for heavier trains) and gravity. Thus the balancing speed will depend on all these factors, and unless governed, an electric train should go faster downhill than up. (*The back EMF can be reduced by reducing the field strength, hence the "weak field" settings which improve maximum speed at the expense of low-speed acceleration. www.vnerr.com/training/intro_loco_app.pdf That's it, somebody did explain all that back EMF stuff to me before... lol
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Post by philthetube on Sept 4, 2015 6:10:46 GMT
An S stock Rolling through Willseden Green N/B at 50mph will go through Neasden at 60mph, one can guess what speed one going through Willesden at 60mph could reach.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 8:44:32 GMT
How likely is that to happen out of interest ? The most I've ever gone is 2 mph over and then only for a few seconds. Not a driver but I believe if you were to coast downhill after motoring to as fast as the motors will let you, the train will go faster Ah I don't drive tube trains and none of the stock I drive have speed limiters (not set at that the top speed anyway). What I'm saying is I'm not allowed to speed and will get reprimanded for doing so - and that 2 mph brief overspeed was a lapse of concentration on my part going downhill. I'm assuming tube drivers are also not allowed to speed either and therefore the chances of seeing excesses over the limit will be rare ?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 5, 2015 9:26:38 GMT
What I'm saying is I'm not allowed to speed and will get reprimanded for doing so - and that 2 mph brief overspeed was a lapse of concentration on my part going downhill. I'm assuming tube drivers are also not allowed to speed either and therefore the chances of seeing excesses over the limit will be rare ? That's possibly why there have been few replies to this thread from actual drivers. Even behind usernames it's difficult to put into words describing 'experiments' that might have been undertaken on new rolling Stock.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 5, 2015 10:05:16 GMT
That sounds very unlikely for the sort of gradients that occur on railway lines, given that the motors will drive the train pretty fast on the level. It is my understanding that (subject to any governer) the maximum speed or "balancing speed" of any powered vehicle is the speed at which the power delivered to the wheels equals the drag of the train (rolling resistance, aerodynamic, gravity). In an electric motor the power that can be delivered is limited by the back emf, (the electricity generated in the motor as it tries to be a dynamo) which increases with motor speed - thus there comes a point where the back EMF generated by the motor balances the force trying to turn the motor. This is akin to terminal velocity foe a skydiver - the faster you fall, the greater the wind resistance until you reach a speed at which the wind resistance balances the force of gravity and you stop accelerating. Just as a skydiver uses a parachute to increase wind resistance (drag) and thus reduce his terminal velocity to something survivable, the magnitude of the drag of the train, and therefor the balancing speed, will depend on a number of factors, notably aerodynamics (greater wind resistance in tunnels), rolling resistance (generally greater for heavier trains) and gravity. Thus the balancing speed will depend on all these factors, and unless governed, an electric train should go faster downhill than up. (*The back EMF can be reduced by reducing the field strength, hence the "weak field" settings which improve maximum speed at the expense of low-speed acceleration. www.vnerr.com/training/intro_loco_app.pdf That sounds very unlikely for the sort of gradients that occur on railway lines, given that the motors will drive the train pretty fast on the level. For an unpowered (coasting) train to accelerate down a gradient, the gradient need only be steep enough for gravity to overcome rolling resistance. This is true whether it is accelerating from rest or from 60mph. Rolling resistance may be greater at 60mph than at walking pace, but there are plenty of railway gradients steep enough for this to happen. This is why, I understand, trains are allowed to go up Shap faster than they are allowed to go down - it talks longer to stop going downhill because you are fighting gravity instead of working with it. I'm quite familiar with thrust/drag calculations as I'd done quite a few over the years. All I was saying is that, given that railway gradients don't tend to be that steep (although I know LU use steeper ones than mainline), and the motors will drive trains up to at least 60 mph, it didn't seem very likely that gravity would be sufficient to overcome the drag at that speed. Of course, trains are, relatively, very slippery, and it only takes one driver to confirm that they can accelerate from 60 using gravity alone and, unlikely or not, it happens!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 11:57:09 GMT
I think it's interesting to compare theory with reality. In my experience all trains roll (coast) differently and it doesn't take very much of a downhill gradient at all to accelerate through 60 mph.
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Post by class411 on Sept 5, 2015 13:01:29 GMT
I think it's interesting to compare theory with reality. In my experience all trains roll (coast) differently and it doesn't take very much of a downhill gradient at all to accelerate through 60 mph. I'd be very interested to compare the total drag/weight (or drag/length or drag/passengers) ratio of a train with other vehicles. I suspect it would be a lot lower. I've often wondered if the airflow over the surfaces is partly laminar, and if so, what proportion.
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Post by orienteer on Sept 5, 2015 14:39:15 GMT
I reported on another thread of reading 67mph on my smartphone GPS app on a northbound S8 through Willesden Green. Though this was met with scepticism I'm sure it was correct, subjectively.
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