Next WTT(68) - Central Line

Surely it will be when 'night tube' comes in and I guess that'll be the big change.

I've got no official source on this, but I can't see why they could possibly want to change it before then and it's due soon, isn't it? I mean, I don't expect the introduction to be trouble free either, but still.

Well I guess fresh air has to get around somehow as well. I always thought maintaining an ageing fleet that's probably too small was a bad use of time and money anyway.

It's not just an ageing fleet of drivers, the trains are getting on a bit too!

;-)

Simon
(2nd attempt at posting as the 1st got the quotes all screwed up)

Current max is 85 kph. I believe that Auto will not drive faster than 85 kph after a software change of some sort. However, the target speed provided by the ATP can still reach 100 kph and there is nothing physically stopping (as far as I know) a person from reaching 100 kph. However, T/Ops are also prohibited from exceeding 85 kph and if they were to do so and were discovered, it would be a bad day in the life of them.

Yes they did. Then, in 2003, a train derailed at Chancery Lane when one of the traction motors came loose from its mountings. The reason for this was discovered to be poor quality bolts, which had to be replaced across the fleet. The whole fleet was grounded and it was a few months before a full service across the Central and Waterloo & City lines could be provided. It was also felt that the excessive vibrations which occurred when the trains travelled at full speed were a contributing factor. Despite the replacement of the bolts, the speed was limited to mitigate the risk of a recurrence.

I dread to think what will happen if they are.

EDIT: Nice to have the confirmation, though, superteacher

A favourite ground for fast running at or above the 62mph was north of Woodford. I thought at the time (pre-03) the trains were generally pretty smooth runners at that speed; Debden to Theydon was especially exhilarating

My friend, regardless of all other considerations, the first northbound Bakerloo line service is the 05 37 ex Elephant & Castle (departs 05 47½), which has a 10½ minute journey. The first southbound Bakerloo line service is the 05a26½ ex Stonebridge Park (departs 05 54) which has a 27½ minute journey. The first northbound Victoria line service is the 05 26¾ ex Brixton (departs 05 38), which has an 11¼ minute journey. The first southbound Victoria line service is the 05 21¼ ex Seven Sisters (departs 05 34½), which has a 13¼ minute journey.

The first eastbound Central line service is the 05 33¾ ex White City (departs ?05 48), which has an ?14 minute journey. The first westbound Central line service is the 05 10¼ (that's ten) ex Epping (departs ?05 56), which has an ?45 minute journey. That's your answer. The Central line's depot on the east end is way out in Hainault, with sidings out in Woodford and Loughton. That first westbound leaves Loughton sidings at 04 53 (that's four). It's one of the first trains on the network. It's certainly the first on the Central line.

That's also why it's busy, it comes through 20 stations. You could just about get a train to Oxford Circus westbound earlier by running the first Hainault train through (it currently turns at Leytonstone). It'd be about three minutes earlier. But TfL also have to think about how best to get a good balance of trains across their network as quickly as possible and also about where trains are most needed and when. It's why I at Roding Valley have to make do with three trains an hour. The early morning service on the east end of the line has to be provided from the east end sidings and depots because the west end ones are so far away and vice versa.

I also doubt you'd also get any improvement if you were to, say, send one of the first White City trains eastbound and turn it back west at Liverpool Street. I predict it'd get back to Oxford Circus westbound at about the same time.

I'm sorry to say that the fact is, you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time. So unless we go without engineering hours, or perhaps establish a depot at Tottenham Court Road (one for the RIPAS boards), there's not much that can be done.

Edit: It's true you could probably have an ?05:00 departure from Woodford sidings run through to Oxford Circus which would be able to get there somewhat earlier, but the timetable people have an entire network to think about and I can't really see it happening. As I said, the trains from the east end depot and sidings are needed for the service on the east end of the line. It's not necessarily a good idea to send the first one straight through the pipe. At that time of the day, it's not that TfL think that nobody travels. It's that lots of people are in the suburbs and outer stations wanting to come in. So that's part of the reason why the trains are there. The first trains from Woodford currently run up to Epping before going into Central London cause that's where the people are.

Edit 2: The other possibility, of course, is out stabling a train, e.g. in Liverpool Street sidings. Maybe one day you'll see this, if there's the demand for it. If it's not worth doing, though, it won't be done, because it's a pain. You have to make sure you put in stock changeover paths so that all trains return to a depot regularly enough. You have to get your train operator(s) to the stabling location. Liverpool Street, of course, is quite far from the Central line's crew depots. You have to get your train operators physically onto and off of the train, which at Liverpool Street is gonna mean going via the track. This is never an ideal solution. Out stabling in a platform gets around this, but is a pain in terms of cleaning and maintaining the track and the station and in terms of running engineering trains. I'm sure I've missed bullet points.

Maybe not. But it would be a pain the the butt to walk the drivers down there to prepare and bring out the train. The sdgs at E&c for instance, have a dedicated safe passage walkway.

Staff taxi? But I do agree that the other problems would make the idea of stabling a train at Liverpool Street difficult.

The new Timetable 68 is actually effective from 6 September.

Naturally the lost of the through trains from Grange Hill will upset a lot of the commuters who currently take advantage of them. They may very well be able to make a "quick change" but it will be onto a busy train from Epping/Loughton. From personal experience, the through trains from Grange Hill are usually fairly busy by the time they hit Woodford, with all seats taken at the least. Dumping all of those people onto the busy westbound platform at Woodford is not gonna make them happy. It's not dissimilar to the situation at Mill Hill East.

However, I've gone on before about the need LU have to take into account the entire service. The fact that the Epping branch is where trains are needed is indisputable, so I can't complain. Not that I've travelled in the morning peak for ages anyway, so it don't much matter to me ... Mind you, my sister might give me, the resident LU "representative", an earful

However, what I would like to ask about is how turning them at Woodford will enable a better service on the Epping branch. Because currently, the HAIDTG (Hainault Depot via Grange Hill) trains just need to cross Woodford junction and then they can be speedily on their way, without much affecting the westbound service from Epping. However, turn them at Woodford and you have to tip the train out in the platform and then it's gotta crawl off into 21 road. This will hold up the next westbound considerably, it always does. The signalling system does not even seem to allow the next train into the platform until the reversing train has fully entered 21 road. And then the train has to get back out of 21 road at a later time, which is a conflicting move crossing both the westbound and eastbound main. Invariably the train will leave 21 road later than the indicator boards predict - I have never known it not to.

I can't see them wanting to use the main line shunt, it's a much longer (in terms of time) journey via 21 road for the through train. And you still have to mess around tipping the reversing train out.

Why do Debden reversers cause them more trouble in the early evening that in the morning, where the status quo remains unaltered?

It's odd. There is plenty of time to detain there before the next through Epping train arrives.

The reason for the Loughton reversers at the start of the evening peak being extended to Debden in the first place was due to the volume of Epping Forest College students travelling at that time of day. If anything, that has only increased in recent years so expect some noticeably busier trains.