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Post by sawb on Mar 26, 2015 10:46:24 GMT
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 9, 2016 11:37:55 GMT
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Post by North End on Mar 9, 2016 22:30:28 GMT
The LU internal report has also come out recently. Neither really tells us anything we didn't already know -- namely that it's difficult to guarantee a 100% safe departure from a heavily crowded platform when people are clustering round the door positions. Difficult to solve because people will always do this if it's their only hope of getting on / getting a seat on the next train. Too many people, that's the basic problem. |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 10, 2016 1:56:57 GMT
yes, the RAIB report did seem to be saying to LU that "you got lucky with the consequences this time, take actions so that (a) when something gets trapped in the doors it's less likely to drag the person; and (b) make it easier for platform staff to stop a departing train if they see an incident." rather than trying to prevent incidents from happening completely.
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Post by stuartroy on Mar 10, 2016 18:34:42 GMT
Why is it so difficult to give platform staff some sort of radio-linked emergency stop device? There are emergency plungers on some platforms - surely a way could be found to link this circuitry to a radio-controlled relay switch? Or even a radio link to the driver's cab. They can transmit pictures from the platform to the cab, so why not give the platform staff's radio intercom a button which makes "stop!" flash up on the in-cab screens. Sounds fairly simple to me.
It also does seem to be a basic design flaw that the door push-back will only work in one direction of travel and I hope this finding will inform future designs and re-fits.
Glad to see the report acknowledging the swift actions of the driver, which may have mitigated the outcome.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2016 18:53:29 GMT
I think all new stock will have doors like the S and 09 stock.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2016 19:12:08 GMT
Why is it so difficult to give platform staff some sort of radio-linked emergency stop device? There are emergency plungers on some platforms - surely a way could be found to link this circuitry to a radio-controlled relay switch? Only on the Central, and they work by giving the train a 0 Maximum Safe Speed. |
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 11, 2016 16:24:58 GMT
yes, the RAIB report did seem to be saying to LU that "you got lucky with the consequences this time, take actions so that (a) when something gets trapped in the doors it's less likely to drag the person; and (b) make it easier for platform staff to stop a departing train if they see an incident." rather than trying to prevent incidents from happening completely. Have now read it in more detail. To be honest, my view is that this report represents a lot of work, time and money to not really reach much of a conclusion. One bit did jump out however: "The exact nature of these checks is not described in the rule book, but Northern line train operators are trained to watch the CCTV images for signs of unusual events continuously from when they initiate door closure until the train has left the platform." This is utter rubbish. No Train Operator would ever be watching the monitor continuously. They are taught to check the monitor before initiating the door closure, and most importantly in the period between the doors closing and starting the train. After moving off they should check intermittently, as far as possible, however once the pre-starting safety check is completed the main focus should be on the road ahead. |
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Post by jamesb on Mar 12, 2016 15:56:48 GMT
The emergency stop plungers were installed on the Jubilee line with the new signalling but then never commissioned. They are still there but locked shut. I think it was decided that it wasn't worth it. Then on the northern line, they weren't installed at all.
But looking at the report, the driver applied the brakes 6 seconds after starting to move and the train was stopped by 13 seconds.
On a crowded platform, it would take at least 6 seconds to locate and press a stop plunger.
The Victoria line has sensitive edge doors and emergency stop plungers.
Given the very low chances of someone getting dragged by a train, I wonder how many times it would statistically be predicted to happen again during the lifetimes of the northern line trains?
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Post by jamesb on Mar 12, 2016 16:04:29 GMT
Would it be practical for the train to have an external CCTV camera pointing down every carriage , have have the cab monitor displaying a close up view of each carriage?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 12, 2016 18:08:42 GMT
AIUI there would not be capability in the cab to display that many images at a useful size. The report also notes that there is a desire to minimise the number of separate images train operators have to monitor simultaneously.
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Post by jamesb on Mar 12, 2016 20:14:53 GMT
The other thing I took from the report is that the driver and platform assistant reacted outstandingly to the incident. They were both experienced.
The driver stopped the train quickly and the platform assistant operated the tunnel telephone to turn off the traction current.
Their actions saved her life. I mean, most drivers drive a train for an entire career and have never dragged someone along the platform. So to react so quickly was impressive imo. There was no 'stunned effect' he just stopped the train immediately. Probably for the first time in such circumstances for 14 years.
It proves that the driver was looking at the CCTV monitors - glancing forward for 5 seconds and he might have missed it once she was under
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Post by superteacher on Mar 12, 2016 21:19:39 GMT
It's a bit easier to watch the monitors when a train is in ATO.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2016 3:17:17 GMT
I read somewhere that trials had taken place for some Northern line trains travelling n/b from Morden in the am peak, to not enter service until Clapham south, so as to ease overcrowding at Clapham south/Common/North. This seems a very logical idea considering the ever increasing amount of journeys starting at the mentioned stations. Something will need to be done to remedy overcrowding or unfortunately incidents like the coat dragging one will happen more often sadly.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 13, 2016 8:56:43 GMT
I read somewhere that trials had taken place for some Northern line trains travelling n/b from Morden in the am peak, to not enter service until Clapham south, . Can't see running empty trains through Tooting and Balham in the middle of the peak going down well with the local inhabitants.......... |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 13, 2016 8:57:20 GMT
It's mentioned in the report that the trials had been unsuccessful as they just moved the overcrowding elsewhere.
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Post by superteacher on Mar 13, 2016 10:50:59 GMT
It's mentioned in the report that the trials had been unsuccessful as they just moved the overcrowding elsewhere. What amazes me is that they needed a trial to work that out . . |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 13, 2016 10:54:29 GMT
It's mentioned in the report that the trials had been unsuccessful as they just moved the overcrowding elsewhere. Was that the floor painting trial, or the not-in-service until x trial? I'm still intrigued to see these experimental floor markings. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2016 10:57:24 GMT
I'll have to look for the article and read it again. It could of possibly said entering service at the stations you mentioned, I'm not entirely sure :-)
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 13, 2016 14:37:17 GMT
I'll have to look for the article and read it again. It could of possibly said entering service at the stations you mentioned, I'm not entirely sure :-) The trial was 4x trains running empty from Morden Depot as far as Tooting Broadway. This was not deemed successful as it created more problems than it solved. The root cause is of course too many people, no amount of tinkering with existing infrastructure will address that. |
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 13, 2016 16:09:56 GMT
The root cause is of course too many people, no amount of tinkering with existing infrastructure will address that. Wither the Express Tube plan for which many station tunnels were built in the late 1930's / early 1940's? Also, harmonising the fares system so that PAYG passengers stop being financially penalised for travelling on a mainline service - rather than the Northern Line - will help encourage people who are price conscious to stop choosing the Tube Train option when other options are available. Simon |
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