|
|
Post by stapler on Mar 8, 2015 22:11:38 GMT
The LNER installed standard design wooden Passimeters at quite a few of its lesser used stations - eg Cambridge Heath, Hackney Downs, and St James Street (country end). Were there any on the stations that were transferred after WW2 to LT for the Central Line, and did LTE persevere with them? I have a vague memory of Hainault having one in the early 50s and also Leyton B, but can't be sure. Anyone know?
|
|
|
|
Post by theblackferret on Mar 8, 2015 23:12:45 GMT
Here's a link to a site which has a photograph (1955) of one at the other end of the Central line (Perivale) & that looks wooden to me! perivale1955And, here's another link, for, guess where-Hainault! HainaultpassimeterAnd that looks wooden, too-see from the text on number 2, they were in use until the 1980's, too! In fact, a site more wooden than the wood pigeons nesting in my garden, in both cases, so that's helped you. |
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Mar 9, 2015 0:23:21 GMT
London Transport were at the forefront with literally hundreds of them, standard and narrow. Earls Court had four one standard at each end and two narrow in the exhibition subway. As an apprentice I was sent to supplement the staff in the exhibition offices.
Oddly enough when LT took over Bromley by Bow to Upminster Bridge they took away the passimeters from Upminster Bridge, Elm Park, Heathway, and Upney. I think they had them at Becontree, Hornchurch, and Dagenham East.
I think for the District Line, more stations had them than did not. eg Westminster had two standard
|
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Mar 9, 2015 8:14:33 GMT
Thanks - but the picture supposed to be Hainault can't be, unless in a museum, as there is a District Line train describer in the left background!
Also, I don't think these LT island ticket cabins (which would have been used to save space) were true passimeters. The Passimeter proper was equipped with wooden gates either side, and the theory was that the booking clerk unbolted (from inside) the "in" gate only when the passenger had purchased or shown a ticket, and unbolted the "out" gate only when a ticket had been shown or surrendered. When I was briefly in the TSSA in the early 70s, an old hand told me that because the passimeter saved a member of staff, the LNER has offered booking clerks the munificent sum of 11d a shift extra pay, which had never been increased (and the clerks just left the gates open and took little interest in ticket checking).
|
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286 
|
Post by rincew1nd on Mar 9, 2015 9:27:36 GMT
These look more like Gate Line Assistance Points (GLAPs) to me. I envisage a passimeter being more akin to a turnstile.
|
|
|
|
Post by theblackferret on Mar 9, 2015 11:02:06 GMT
Sorry, guys, I did that trawl late last night, having spent the entire weekend ripping forgotten British beat & freakbeat classics off You-Tube & burning CD's for my collection, as this last batch fills the cabinet, stopping at number 554 (over 7,200 different tracks altogether!). The 2nd photo states these were designed by Charles Holden & that one was installed at Hainault in 1940. So that, if correct, predates when stapler saw the LNER version. I'd therefore suggest that, as the juice wasn't turned on from Epping to Ongar until 1957 to complete that part of the 'new works', the wooden LNER ones went & were replaced by those at some stage during the 1950's or around 1962, when JE Connor states in Middleton Press Branch Line To Ongar several stations down that way were completely refurbished. stapler has only a vague memory of one-which is actually more reliable than saying 'I could swear blind there was one'. I'd suggest the bigger wooden ones would not have been replaced before LT officially opened it, because extra traffic that would necessitate a more convenient & faster method of ticket checking was not yet forthcoming. Or, LT simply couldn't afford it in the immediate aftermath of the war-after all, it took them 7 years to end London's trams, because they couldn't afford the replacement buses straight away. Hope LT has an archive somewhere, so we can nail this down completely! |
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Mar 9, 2015 17:55:29 GMT
www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/Passimeter.htm This is an image from a passimeter from Westminster so I worked in it. It did not have three windows, only two, but there were two passimeters side by side; the second passimeter had one window. Tickets were only sold from these and tickets or excess fares were not collected.
|
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Mar 9, 2015 21:45:41 GMT
Yes, rev - these were island ticket offices. They weren't passimeters, in that ticket collection and checking were done separately at the gate line. It may have been intended originally to combine the two functions with these structures, but if so, that idea was abandoned many decades ago (or it may have been confined to Sundays etc)
|
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Mar 10, 2015 7:28:49 GMT
Yes, rev - these were island ticket offices. They weren't passimeters, in that ticket collection and checking were done separately at the gate line. It may have been intended originally to combine the two functions with these structures, but if so, that idea was abandoned many decades ago (or it may have been confined to Sundays etc) I assure you London Transport called them passimeters. In the 1968 book "How the Underground Works" (by Paul E. Garbutt M.B.E, A.M Inst.T.) published by London Transport on pages 49 and 59 he refers to wall offices and passimeter booths. Peter Kay, who is writing the gospel for the LT&SR, in volume 3, 1929-1939, published 2010 has three images of Becontree, Elm Park, and Upminster Bridge Booking Halls and refers to passimeters under two of the photos. Wikipedia does not have a separate entry (maybe I should do one) but if you put passimeter into their search box numerous underground stations come up and also Frank Pick. |
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Mar 10, 2015 7:57:45 GMT
I know, rev. But unless they were actually cabins that controlled exit and entrance, they weren't passimeters - just island booking offices, passimeter style. I think the passimeter originated in the US, where ticketing systems were simpler. The problem with them being used as exit entry controls in London was that if someone was penned up at the gate buying 2 adults, two halves, a dog and a folding mail cart return from Leyton to Loughton, people waving their seasons to London would still be fuming in the queue five minutes later!
So although LT copied the idea of the island cabin (so as to allow more retail round the perimeter of ticket halls), so far as I know they didn't use the bolted entry gate and ticket control from them.
Perhaps Peter Kay could bring his wisdom to bear on this?
|
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 10, 2015 10:52:20 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Mar 10, 2015 11:05:02 GMT
The nearest I did to what you are talking about was West Brompton (very quiet station) when I sold tickets from one side and on the other side collected tickets and excess fares which I recorded on an excess fare sheet by putting the time taken against a fare value. (Ticket Collectors used to drive Rolls Royces then). There was a wooden bar we could push across from inside but we could not trap anybody between two.
The main use of a Passimeter was to form two orderly queues and point the passenger in the right direction for the manned ticket barriers. Leicester Square had two in the booking hall. One pointing towards the Northern escalators and another at the Piccadilly escalators. At 2200 if you could get the booking clerks out of the Porcupine pub there would be four windows open for the theatre traffic. It was the only station I worked at when I missed the last bus at 00.40hrs from Trafalgar Square.
Ps Just seen the image above and in the sixties we never had a turnstile.
Also no money was kept in the passimeter overnight and would be collected by the station master or chief clerk to be banked. At the end of the evening it would be put in a safe generally in the Booking Clerks mess room
|
|
|
|
Post by theblackferret on Mar 10, 2015 11:28:21 GMT
I'm pretty sure there were still turnstile-operated ones in the early 1970's at one of the District Line stations nearest to the first Division football grounds. But I can't recall if this is Fulham Broadway (Chelsea) or Upton Park (West Ham) or just maybe both I'm recollecting. I do recall how frustrating it was getting down to the trains after the game because of the time taken to pass through those things, especially after a big match. As for stapler, I'll try & dig out something regarding a photo of an LNER-installed one, even if it's at what's now a NR/LO station, just for comparison with the LT designs. |
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Mar 10, 2015 11:42:04 GMT
I worked Fulham Broadway football and they had a wall office and I was rostered at Upton Park and we had a wall office of three windows and there was a fourth window in the mess room used on Monday mornings by the chief clerk to sell weekly tickets.
Putney Bridge for Fulham FC might be where a passimeter was.
|
|
|
|
Post by theblackferret on Mar 10, 2015 12:06:53 GMT
I worked Fulham Broadway football and they had a wall office and I was rostered at Upton Park and we had a wall office of three windows and there was a fourth window in the mess room used on Monday mornings by the chief clerk to sell weekly tickets. Putney Bridge for Fulham FC might be where a passimeter was. Now that one I'd forgotten-usually went by car to Fulham, as the Tube is miles from Craven Cottage, compared to the other two. At least when they were in the top flight (relegated in 1968). But, I did go & see them a couple of times at least in the '76-77 season, later than I thought initially. Because they had both Bestie & Rodney Marsh! So that might well be where they still were-thanks. |
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 10, 2015 14:19:21 GMT
Now that one I'd forgotten-usually went by car to Fulham, as the Tube is miles from Craven Cottage, compared to the other two. At least when they were in the top flight (relegated in 1968). t I think they've been in the top flight rather more recently! (2001 until last year) Not to mention getting to the final of the Europa league in 2010 |
|
|
|
Post by theblackferret on Mar 10, 2015 15:09:28 GMT
Now that one I'd forgotten-usually went by car to Fulham, as the Tube is miles from Craven Cottage, compared to the other two. At least when they were in the top flight (relegated in 1968). t I think they've been in the top flight rather more recently! (2001 until last year) Not to mention getting to the final of the Europa league in 2010 Yes, sorry I forgot 'then'! I saw Utd. beat them 0-4 on Good Friday 1968 & can still remember a Bobby Charlton shot Macedo parried-it bounced into touch near the half-way line, Macedo still had his arm left intact afterwards, too! Wonder if a passimeter booking office would've kept it out? Here's a pair from Brent Station, though I doubt these are LNER origin:  |
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Mar 10, 2015 16:34:12 GMT
Thanks, Flyer -- the Hendon Central pic is very like the LNER ones. This shows clearly the spring-loaded barriers, and also the sort of queue that could build up behind them when the benighted clerk was trying to deal with something complex! I suspect that very soon after this first pic was taken, conventional collection of tickets would have been started, and the barriers would have been left unlocked. By the way, handing in a ticket at a Passimeter was quite fun, as they had curved and polished metal plates onto which to put your coins. A slight flick would send the ticket onto the floor, and if the clerk stooped to retrieve it, any number of your mates could walk through! By the way, AFC gates were certainly not installed at Hendon in 1975. |
|
|
|
Post by theblackferret on Mar 10, 2015 17:08:12 GMT
By the way, handing in a ticket at a Passimeter was quite fun, as they had curved and polished metal plates onto which to put your coins. A slight flick would send the ticket onto the floor, and if the clerk stooped to retrieve it, any number of your mates could walk through! Ah, I see someone else has heard that no-doubt apocryphal story.  |
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Mar 18, 2015 16:57:51 GMT
The clip of Angel posted on thread
Some more Thames News bits and bobs
shows both interior and exterior of a 1930s Passimeter booking office - but equally shows that, whatever the original intention, at the time of filming just pre UTS, these were simply used as island booking offices, with the gates disabled (or as in this case) removed, and a separate gateline in use.
I wonder if the clerks were still getting their extra 11d a shift?!
|
|
|
|
Post by theblackferret on Mar 18, 2015 17:25:56 GMT
The clip of Angel posted on thread Some more Thames News bits and bobs shows both interior and exterior of a 1930s Passimeter booking office - but equally shows that, whatever the original intention, at the time of filming just pre UTS, these were simply used as island booking offices, with the gates disabled (or as in this case) removed, and a separate gateline in use. I wonder if the clerks were still getting their extra 11d a shift?! No, it would have been **p, judging by the fashion disasters on parade it's a 1980's clip! Think the blokes were marginally less awful than the girls, but not by very much. Searching the memory banks, I'm struggling to think of turnstiles/gates in use after the mid-70's on the passimeters, though it's possible on the outskirts and therefore less busy stations, there were still some in operation in their original form. The key would be if any of the less busy stations still retained a second entrance, and if that entrance only remained in use during morning peaks. This is guesswork, but I would propose that checking the tickets via keeping the gate in operation is of most use in deterring fare-dodgers at the start, not the finish of a journey. Great clip, too, and the Victoria Line one above it-how did people cope with ignoring the camera before we all had mobile phones & apps, eh? |
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Mar 19, 2015 8:28:35 GMT
Leyton B? Does anyone have a pic of the interior of the ticket office there?
Clip is I suspect just pre-UTS
Yes, it would have been 4p, as LT would have rounded the elevenpence down, knowing them
|
|
|
|
Post by revupminster on Mar 19, 2015 11:06:45 GMT
What is this about 11d a shift. I worked every LT owned ticket office between Bow Road and Hounslow West (before the Bromley By Bow - Upminster Bridge takeover and opening of Heathrow which I since worked at). All were classed as District stations for staffing until the abolition of the four divisions into single line divisions.
Between 1967 and 2001 as an apprentice, a leave cover clerk 2, leave cover clerk 1, Relief Clerk 1, Depot Clerk, Chief Clerk A, then B, abolished and disillusioned under the company plan to SS3 although I has the seniority to displaced a SS1 and finished as SSMulti functional and took early retirement as soon as I could.
I never worked anywhere to get paid 11d a shift even at West Brompton. We or to be exact the ticket office did get paid commission on the sale of Bus tickets (Red Rovers, Twin Rovers), LT books, season ticket cases and a big earner was Left Luggage lockers. When the books were balanced any accruing credit (any debits had to be paid in) would be taken out (LT auditors informed by way of the weekly cash account) and at the end of the month shared out with the commission to the rostered clerks. Cover clerks would often get a payout as well. Leave Cover clerks if they covered a vacancy or sickness would be paid travelling time from their home station.
When the Victoria Line opened the ticket office were staffed with Relief Clerks as they were meant to be used as multifunctional staff but they never did station duties even though trained to do so.
.
|
|
|
|
Post by stapler on Mar 19, 2015 12:19:41 GMT
The 11d a shift was what LNER booking clerks were allegedly paid extra to take on the additional functions of ticket inspector when the passimeters were installed in the 30s. No idea if it ever transferred to LT.
BTW, there is a photo of an LNER Passimeter now in the Chappel railway museum in Great Eastern News 161, Winter 14/15, p.15. Compared with the other photos attached to this thread, they were taller and had more rounded ends, with, if possible, even more glass. From the photo, it's not certain whether the barrier mechanism has survived. Neither the photo caption nor the web indicates which LNER station the EARM example came from.
|
|
