compsci
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Post by compsci on Apr 26, 2007 21:46:49 GMT
After much discussion the situation is now something along the line of this. In order to trim the somewhat spiraling cost, initially the three cars in best condition will be restored. This will cut more than 1/3 from the bill. Volunteers will be used for as much work as possible. Major work will be done by Metronet.
The cost for a Q3 is about £1.5m, of which the HLF will give about £600k. The Friends already have £150k, and the volunteer labour will be valued at £150k. The remainder will hopefully be covered by more donations.
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Post by Chris W on Apr 29, 2007 19:10:36 GMT
I have just received the following e-mail from Paul Hopper (Project Manager of the Q-stock unit restoration project):
"Metronet tender more than hoped - will only do 3 cars initially - 4184 later
Case to HLF will be for £1.5m project - asking HLF for c£600k, must raise £600k, got £150k, volunteer labour value £150k, doing range of tasks from body work, fitting, painting to admin and fundraising. Anybody want to run a raffle according to Institute of Fundraising guidelines?
Thanks to all who have subscribed already - will now be mounting campaign for £600k - all contributions gratefully received....
Target bid in by end June 2007 - answer by end year - hope to start work 2008 to finish 2010....."
Regards
Christopher
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Post by Chris W on Jan 19, 2008 19:31:25 GMT
THE Q-STOCK PROJECT APPLICATION TO THE HERITAGE LOTTERY FUNDING WAS UNSUCCESSFUL
Having just received the Friend's January 08 newsletter it seems that the reasons for the rejection were based upon the infrequent use/public access to the vehicles and the limited occasions that the Depot currently opens to the public*
* I'm sure that elsewhere on the forum it has been mentioned that the Museum Depot @ Acton may open most/all weekends in the future
Between the Friends and Museum it has been decided that they will NOT be reapplying for another HLF grant. This is due to the reduction in the amount of funding that they would apply for in a future HLF grant application, couple with a lack of guarantee of success in that resources that could be better targeted elsewhere e.g. time/effort that could achieve nothing if another application was unsuccessful with the implications upon timescales - basically they've cut their losses at an early stage!
PARAPHRASING THE ARTICLE/UPDATE
To date approx. £400,000 has been collected/donated (including the late Bob Greenway's bequest), which will initially be used to bring the 4 cars up to "static museum standard plus" standards. This means that the cars will be restored above the solebars both internally and externally and include limited electrical/mechanical work also above the solebar (hence the 'plus'). Then when funds allow, the unit will be restored to full serviceable condition (including maintenance) with the full participation of the Friends and Museum - a redefined 2-stage project plan is now being undertaken.
I will contact the project manager (Paul Hopper) on behalf of the forum for more updates in due course, but as I sure members will be aware, he will have his hands full so I will only touch base with him infrequently.
As an aside, the January 08 Friends Newsletter also notes that the commemorative booklet originally published when the Q stocks were withdrawn (1971) will be reprinted to assist with fundraising - it was originally compiled by Robert Evans & Robert Cullen who organised the 'farewell' tour.
The 26-page booklet, entitled "Farewell to the Q-stock trains" is available from the Museum shop at £5.99
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Post by Chris W on Jul 3, 2008 18:55:54 GMT
Ladies & Gents I've exchanged e-mails with the Project Manager of the Q-stock project this week and have received the following update: Q STOCK BRIEFING NOTE JUNE 2008
The objective of the Q stock restoration project - a part of the Museum/Friends "Moving Tube Heritage" concept - is to restore the four Q stock vehicles currently housed in the Depot to operating condition by 10 January 2013.
1 The basic business case for restoring four cars to working order is
- DfTp discussing proposals to ensure historically significant artefacts are protected to tell the story of British railway history
- Many leading world cities - Berlin, New York, Paris - operate heritage trains in public service, and London should also have a world class programme
- A restored subsurface Q stock train would complement the restored operational 1938 tube stock
- The Q stock has high heritage significance, with two cars - from 1923 and 1935 - representing the last US influenced clerestory roofed generation and two cars surviving from the 1938 introduction of flare sided vehicles, which was a key initial LPTB design initiative
- Operating heritage stock has greater public appeal, educational benefit and historical value added than static display, as witnessed by the popularity of the operation of preserved railways
2 The estimated cost of restoring four cars to operating condition is £2million. This figure is based on extensive discussion with Metronet, albeit some months ago. Key components of this cost - which are now subject to review - are
- testing and overhaul of wheelsets
- removal of asbestos
- recabling
- restoring door operating mechanisms
- internal refitting - panelling, lighting and trim
- overhaul of all traction equipment
- overhaul of all control equipment
- replacement of missing components to achieve the above
- painting
- Metronet overhead recovery
- project management
- contingency
Some assembly tasks in internal refitting could be carried out by Friends volunteer labour, but care must be taken not to interfere with Metronet progress once the job is contracted as this would incur additional cost.
Significant costs could be saved by initially restoring only three cars to working condition as the 1923 vehicle is in the worst condition. Operating fewer than three cars would give operational problems with gapping.
If there are major problems with the wheels or bogies which cannot be resolved, the vehicles will be unable to operate, and the project must be recast to static display only.
3 The funding position is that the Friends currently hold some £400,000, which preliminary discussion with Metronet indicates could be utilised for undertaking restoration to "static museum display condition plus" above the solebar. This condition would mean that work completed inside the cars would not need to be disturbed for further mechanical and electrical work to bring the vehicles to operating standard.
The sources of this funding are in outline- Greenaway bequest - £100,000
- Transfer from Friends' reserves - £250,000
- Raised from Friends in two tranches - £50,000
Major expenditure will commence with wheel testing, and transport of the vehicles to Acton Works for asbestos removal.
4 Potential fundraising activity depends on production of the "case for support", and could include contributions from any of the following- charitable trusts that support heritage or social aspects of transport
- commercial bodies, especially those that supply London's transport infrastructure
- high net worth individuals with an interest in the Underground or London history
- statutory bodies that may wish to celebrate the 150th anniversary of the first Underground railway in the world in London on 10 January 2013
- the general public and transport enthusiasts following PR activity across a range of relevant media
- a range of merchandising being developed in conjunction with the Museum shop
- fundraising events such as a black tie dinner
- initiatives and activity driven by a high profile fundraising committee
5 The restoration project will be project managed by the Friends, working closely with the Museum. Fundraising will be joint activity between the Museum and Friends. Payment of invoices for work undertaken will be by the Museum as owner of the vehicles, and to enable VAT offset. Operation of the vehicles once restored to service will be under the auspices of the joint Museum/Friends Heritage Trains Group, and in partnership with London Underground.
PEH 24 June 2008
More news/updates as & when I get them  ChrisW |
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Post by 100andthirty on Jul 3, 2008 21:40:24 GMT
the historical significance of heritage trains is powerful. I have travelled in an 1896 electric train on line 1 in Budapest, and vehicles not much younger in Berlin and Hamburg (and Hamburg's bar train but that's another story). Even for this 5%^& year old the impact was much greater than from static displays. The same is true travelling in Sarah Siddons - a treat indeed.
all good luck to the Museum a very worthy project
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 3, 2008 22:54:29 GMT
When I've got the spare time I'd like to offer my services as a coach finisher to the Q stock project - having seen them at Acton and casting my beady eye over the outsides, I could happily finish paint them in about a fortnight.
Sorry to just only offer 'window-dressing' help, but I'm a dab hand with knifing/brushing stopper and I need to upgrade to using a 5" brush - I can manage a 4" brush comfortably!
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metman
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Post by metman on Jul 3, 2008 23:07:25 GMT
I'd love to help! When the museum gets a 4 car set of A stock I shall be glued to that too!
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compsci
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Post by compsci on Jul 4, 2008 7:22:17 GMT
It should be noted that there are plenty of things that the museum could do with volunteers to help with at the moment. PM me for details of who to contact. If you need any more encouragement, the buffet at the last thank you party was epic. We only managed to get through 1/2 of the booze.
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Post by mowat on Jul 4, 2008 19:36:26 GMT
Assuming that the restoration to either static or operable condition goes ahead, what type of formation would the unit be in. I'm guessing the most likely would be with the Q38 DM's leading: Q38-Q23-Q35-Q38. Personaly I think (and I'm sure others will agree) it would be nice to have the Q23 DM leading at one end (though somone would have to find a set of motors and compressors for it). |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jul 5, 2008 0:14:50 GMT
Its a very good point; the underground does lack opperational heritage units. Great, we may have a 38ts, 60ts and soon a 62ts, but the story started way before them. A pity none of the gate stock survived, and that the Cammel Laird trailers were condenmed in 69.
Still, we can hope for the standards, the Q stock and possibly the CO/CP stock in the future.
Would it be possible for a run of Sarah and the remaining Drednaughts to occur at some point?
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metman
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Post by metman on Jul 5, 2008 0:16:02 GMT
That would be nice, but I guess time may mean you initial formation is used!
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 5, 2008 16:10:22 GMT
the 1923 vehicle is in the worst condition. What condition is it in compared to the Q23 in Covent Garden? |
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metman
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Post by metman on Jul 6, 2008 0:57:51 GMT
I believe the former G stock car at Acton was displayed outside the Gloucester car works for many years. The LTM car hasn't run since 1972 so its anyones guess!
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Post by maxtube on Jul 6, 2008 18:29:45 GMT
could they rustle up the 5 or so cars of 1959 stock and make a full unit??@@!! That would be nice! Especially as of 2002 the LTM own 1959 stock DM 1018 stored at DERA Shoeburyness. If only the EOR didn't let their 12 cars of 1962 stock get vandalised beyond repair. At least we still have Craven's 4-car train. LTM are also planning to make a working train of Standard Stock, with engineering cars L131 and L134, and Wight cars 27 and 49. I hear there are also many Pre-1938 stock cars at Acton Works. But they have probably been scrapped by now. |
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 6, 2008 18:38:09 GMT
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jul 6, 2008 20:17:08 GMT
How many standard stock cars survive at Acton. I've read in UN that some have been disposed of, but nowhere else. Are 12 cars still there, and how come noone else has tenderd to take some? Also is the old intended TRC still existant. I hope so; maybe one day a full 7 car 1938ts could be made with it.
Anyone know about this?
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Post by maxtube on Jul 6, 2008 20:26:47 GMT
If it still exists, you could use the TRC and the 2 Starlight Express DMs when they're withdrawn from the IOW. I don't think Acton will dispose of the two trailers painted in heritage livery. I think these should be used instead or with the NSE trailers currently in the 4-car pre-1938 stock train. And I'd rather see a Standard Stock train than A stock, seeing as we have a very similar 1938 stock already.
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Post by 21146 on Jul 6, 2008 21:18:48 GMT
Here are some of the Standard Stock cars being "repatriated" to LU in 1990. www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/2642560491/sizes/l/(With "Flasher" Robinson driving) Sadly the optimism of those days was misplaced and a number of these cars have since been effectively allowed to rust away in Acton Works. At least a Standard Stock train could have been restored to original appearance and run on much of the network. A Stock would be confined to the Met and very difficult to return to unpainted condition. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jul 6, 2008 23:45:31 GMT
Do all 12 survive though? Excellant picture btw! Why the nickname?
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Post by mowat on Jul 7, 2008 15:25:00 GMT
Thirteen cars of standard stock survive, one of which is the 1927 DM formerly at the science museum. This is now at Acton in 1960's Central line condition. The other 12 cars include 5 from the IoW, and 7 ex service stock. Excluding the ex science museum car there are:
5 - 1931/34 DM's
3 - 1931 T
1 - 1927 DM
1 - 1925 CT
2 - 1923 T
Personaly I thing it would nice if the ex science museum car was moved to Covant Garden, and as for the others either make a 7 car train out of them, or form three 4 car units.
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 7, 2008 16:50:30 GMT
A Stock would be confined to the Met and very difficult to return to unpainted condition. But doesn't the LTM have a policy of keeping vehicles in the condition they were it when they were withdrawn (unless they have to completely re-build them)? The Q23 DM and the Q35 trailer aren't going to be restored to original condition, when they had hand-worked doors and were the District's G, K, L, M and N classes, and I don't think the 1938TS is in original condition either - doesn't it have a brown roof? |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jul 7, 2008 17:47:38 GMT
You could paint it aluminium in colour? Defeats the purpose somewhat, but its better than nothing!
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 7, 2008 18:44:34 GMT
But then you would have to remove the end windows, and do a lot of work on the interior. I think it should be kept in refurbished condition.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jul 7, 2008 20:49:33 GMT
I agree, the A60 stock must be preserved in working order. A four car standard stock train must also survive-there must be a solution!
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Post by 21146 on Jul 7, 2008 23:23:19 GMT
A Stock would be confined to the Met and very difficult to return to unpainted condition. But doesn't the LTM have a policy of keeping vehicles in the condition they were it when they were withdrawn (unless they have to completely re-build them)? The Q23 DM and the Q35 trailer aren't going to be restored to original condition, when they had hand-worked doors and were the District's G, K, L, M and N classes, and I don't think the 1938TS is in original condition either - doesn't it have a brown roof? So they're not rebuilding RM2 into as-delivered state in 2008? Oops yes they are! Like a lot of things museum policies change over years. I'd love to see an A Stock in "as delivered" condition - unpainted aluminium, light-grey roof, narrow white-on-black Johnston dest.blinds, Train Red-edged-black large car numbers and underlined LT fleetnames, white oil tail-lamp on rear bracket... |
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Post by 21146 on Jul 8, 2008 11:27:03 GMT
But then you would have to remove the end windows, and do a lot of work on the interior. I think it should be kept in refurbished condition. Well the "RAT" car has a more-or-less original interior at least! Paint the rest grey inside and re-install grey/black/red moquette... |
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metman
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Post by metman on Jul 8, 2008 16:00:41 GMT
Why not have two 4 car trains- one in each style!!!!  |
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Post by astock5000 on Jul 8, 2008 17:10:32 GMT
I'd love to see an A Stock in "as delivered" condition - unpainted aluminium, light-grey roof, narrow white-on-black Johnston dest.blinds, Train Red-edged-black large car numbers and underlined LT fleetnames, white oil tail-lamp on rear bracket... I prefer them in the refurbished livery. I agree, the A60 stock must be preserved in working order. A four car standard stock train must also survive-there must be a solution! The LTM would have to: 1. Find more room. 2. Not preserve an A60, and hope someone else does (and that could mean that no-one preserves C stock because they would get an A instead). 3. Try to sell the Standard stock to someone who can restore them. I think that the LTM should find somewhere else to put things like the 1972TS DM, as they are using space in Acton and don't need to be on a track that is joined to the LU system. |
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Post by Chris W on Jul 8, 2008 19:39:29 GMT
WOAH THERE!!! Talk about a wish list ;D ;D ;D Lets face it the Q-stock project has a mountain to climb to get all 4 cars back to serviceable condition (all £1.6million pounds of it)... then there's the standard tube stock.... A (unreferb and/or refurb condition) & C... maybe D.... etc. etc!!! As astock5000 has started to intimate, the cruel reality is that the Acton Town LU museum is pushed for space as it is, and if anything else going in the laws of physics dictate that something else must get thrown out... Yes arguably a Crossrail mock-up might be expendable... but the unrefurbed 72, green Central Line prototype car 16, 83ts!! I'm sure many would scream if that were to happen??? IMO in the cold reality of day at best we can only hope than a single DM of A, C & D stock may possibly be saved from the cutters torch & that's at the cost of something else   |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jul 8, 2008 20:49:18 GMT
Werent CHT going to take on a four car of A stock? Chris W, can you confirm that all 13 cars of standard stock do still survive? (hopeing not to seem paranoid about that  ) |
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