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Post by stapler on Jan 4, 2015 8:32:09 GMT
When the UTS started in the late 80s, tickets were printed on bright yellow stock. In the mid-90s (?) the colour was changed to pale pink, with green dragon's teeth along the bottom. Why?
And why do machines even now always return tickets issued to NR destinations, or NR tickets - and why can NR machines not read UTS tickets?
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Post by snoggle on Jan 4, 2015 9:26:57 GMT
When the UTS started in the late 80s, tickets were printed on bright yellow stock. In the mid-90s (?) the colour was changed to pale pink, with green dragon's teeth along the bottom. Why? And why do machines even now always return tickets issued to NR destinations, or NR tickets - and why can NR machines not read UTS tickets? I think the change in ticket stock colour / design was simply an anti fraud measure to reduce the risk of counterfeit tickets. IIRC there was also a measure put in place to colour code North, East, South and West quadrants depending on the issuing station for seasons / one day tickets that were issued without zone 1 validity. That would aid any visual inspection if a ticket turned up away from the issuing quadrant - people would be asked how they got to the station they were exiting from. There were rather fewer "orbital" travel options in those days. The return of NR dest tickets is very simple. The coding is such that a LU gate cannot know if the ticket still has NR validiaty on it. Therefore the ticket logic is set to always return tickets so people are not left without a ticket that may still be required. A LU gate has no "knowledge" of the NR network. I don't understand your last question - what NR machines? NR ticket gates should be set to read both the LU and NR part of the mag stripe. I can't comment on NR ticket office machines as they've changed massively since I had any dealings with this stuff. Happy to be corrected by those who may be more up to date than I am. |
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Post by stapler on Jan 4, 2015 10:49:45 GMT
Thanks for that (but I don't entirely see why it was harder to counterfeit pale pink rather than yellow!)
NR--For instance - the NR ticket gates at Chelmsford and Colchester (to which I sometimes travel with an LU ticket) will not open with it. Very annoying when returning - I've missed several trains whilst trying to attract the attention of the gate minder!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 4, 2015 13:28:55 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Jan 4, 2015 17:33:09 GMT
Thanks for that (but I don't entirely see why it was harder to counterfeit pale pink rather than yellow!) NR--For instance - the NR ticket gates at Chelmsford and Colchester (to which I sometimes travel with an LU ticket) will not open with it. Very annoying when returning - I've missed several trains whilst trying to attract the attention of the gate minder! I think this is more likely to be a local programming issue with Greater Anglia. There have been umpteen issues with tickets from LU or particular TOCs not working when presented at another TOC's station. The problem, IMO, is a lack of industry coordination even though RSP have updated the encoding spec which allows the NR part of the coding to be updated. Regrettably it seems the gate ticket logic does not always work as it should and some encoding is not up to date. This is what happens when you have a splintered industry with little likelihood of there being common levels of expertise in each TOC on what is an important but niche area of knowledge. I think there is a misguided view that you plonk ticket gates in a station and vast wads of cash appear in the ticket office and ticket machines and that's all that's needed. That's simply wrong given the vast complexity of NR ticketing and the three fares revisions a year (Jan being the big one). A whole load of management and monitoring is needed to make sure passengers are not unduly inconvenienced through coding and checking problems. |
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Post by revupminster on Jan 4, 2015 18:16:19 GMT
I was a booking clerk and the yellow tickets were edmonson size issued from the old rapid and mini printer ticket office machines. A rapid printer which was basically an electro-mechanical machine could issue ten types of ticket some might be the original pale green ticket rolls and if a printing unit was converted to afc then yellow ticket rolls were used. The old upright ticket hall machines used exactly the same parts as the rapid/mini printer. The first afc ticket cash registers were basically electro-mechanical and used edmonson type yellow rolls. When uts started the move was to more electronic type machines and the introduction of credit card size tickets.
afc= automatic fare collection
uts- underground ticketing system
There were a number of trial systems over the years since the 60's, mainly in west London near the signalling offices at Earls Court, including using bar codes. An early system was trialled at Liverpool St using edmonson style tickets to test an electronic cash register.
Thinking about it a bit more the first credit style ticket rolls were yellow before becoming pink but we had to use up the old stock first.
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Post by stapler on Jan 4, 2015 22:19:44 GMT
Don't think the UTS yellow stock could have been the same as the Rapidprinters - different size and coding system. Unless LRT had a massive contract with some paper mill to supply x square miles of yellow card!
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Post by londonboy on Jan 4, 2015 23:29:50 GMT
I can tell you the Following Red Triangles = Issued North of Zone 1 Green Triangles = Issued East of Zone 1 Yellow Triangles = Issued West of Zone 1 Blue Triangles = Issued South of Zone 1 No Triangles - Plain Pink Ticket = Issued in Zone 1 I have an old yellow ticket somewhere it was issued on UTS Yellow Stock Dated 1992 Clicky for a Front PicClicky for a pic of the Back |
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Post by revupminster on Jan 5, 2015 7:12:55 GMT
Don't think the UTS yellow stock could have been the same as the Rapidprinters - different size and coding system. Unless LRT had a massive contract with some paper mill to supply x square miles of yellow card! The rapid printer yellow paper ticket roll was part of the afc system and the bigger credit size rolls were part of uts. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2015 21:52:51 GMT
The UTS system was a major advance in technology at the time - around 1987 - and represented the world's most advanced ticketing technology available - Unfortunately the Debt that LRT incurred in installing it, and servicing the sky-high debt interest repayments cast a black mark on the UTS Scheme.
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Post by revupminster on Jan 5, 2015 22:08:35 GMT
The UTS system was a major advance in technology at the time - around 1987 - and represented the world's most advanced ticketing technology available - Unfortunately the Debt that LRT incurred in installing it, and servicing the sky-high debt interest repayments cast a black mark on the UTS Scheme. I would disagree as the software was written to duplicate the paper based system (proof books) that prevented the advance sale of single and return tickets which would have had significant dent in ticket queues. When Bromley by Bow to Upminster Bridge was taken over by LT the BR booking clerks (all the chief clerks were ex BR) taken over by LT continued to sell return tickets the night before by changing the dates on the Rapid printers and running off 50/60 tickets at a time which reduced the morning queues. The practise ceased after about six months as it rendered the proof books invalid in court. Also it was soon discovered that an annual ticket could be issued by the printing unit and cancelled without defacing the ticket with a black line. Little plastic padlocks were installed inside the printing unit to stop this. |
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Post by superteacher on Jan 5, 2015 22:22:43 GMT
I remember when UTS came in. My local station at the time was Becontree and I remember the building works taking place to update the ticket office and install the machine in 1987. I was so excited when one Friday, the new machine was finally working, and I bought my first ever ticket from UTS - child single to Old Street to stay at my grandparents for the weekend. Seeing the pic of the yellow ticket brought it all back as if it were yesterday. Nearly 28 years, scary . . .
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Post by snoggle on Jan 6, 2015 15:24:52 GMT
The UTS system was a major advance in technology at the time - around 1987 - and represented the world's most advanced ticketing technology available - Unfortunately the Debt that LRT incurred in installing it, and servicing the sky-high debt interest repayments cast a black mark on the UTS Scheme. Can you prove your comments about the debt and sky high interest payments? I ask because UTS was a normal capital funded project that came in on budget. I should know because I produced the 10 project closure reports and was also involved in closing out the extra projects created to deal with extra gates and system mods identified subsequent to the Kings Cross Fire in November 1987 and the related Fennell Report recommendations. It is worth noting that Fennell was only closed out relatively recently because one recommendation (142) was to remove the old "khyber pass" at Kings Cross and expand station capacity - that needed the major station upgrade works. Are you perhaps confusing matters with a view about the Prestige PFI contract? Again I am not aware of problems with debt or interest payments on that specific contract although TfL have turned away from many of the PFI contracts that they inherited when suitable break points emerge. That's a result of TfL's financing being rather different to that of LT / LRT given that TfL has the right to raise its own financing via prudential borrowing. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 6, 2015 15:32:17 GMT
I remember when UTS came in. My local station at the time was Becontree and I remember the building works taking place to update the ticket office and install the machine in 1987. I was so excited when one Friday, the new machine was finally working, and I bought my first ever ticket from UTS - child single to Old Street to stay at my grandparents for the weekend. Seeing the pic of the yellow ticket brought it all back as if it were yesterday. Nearly 28 years, scary . . . Some of us (me!) used to produce the base data for the ticket machines as they were installed in a rolling programme. Our team used to have to test the data by standing at the multi fare machine and selecting every single fare and ticket type and reading out the fare value then cancelling then selecting the next one. Let's just say we got very adept at pressing the machine buttons. Pretty sure I probably tested Becontree's data at some point. I thought I had a dated list of the ticket machine go live dates but I haven't. I have got one for gates going live but the list was produced by someone else - I was kindly sent a copy. |
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Post by stapler on Jan 6, 2015 18:55:01 GMT
There was also the great East Ham ticket fraud of c 1968, when the ticket clerks ran off 10000 Rapidprinter tickets, having over-ordered rolls for some time, and sold them illicitly for months. They left the date blank and dated them in their dating press.
This was when in BR ownership.
Yellow UTS tickets are now seldom seen
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Post by revupminster on Jan 6, 2015 20:46:40 GMT
There was also the great East Ham ticket fraud of c 1968, when the ticket clerks ran off 10000 Rapidprinter tickets, having over-ordered rolls for some time, and sold them illicitly for months. They left the date blank and dated them in their dating press. This was when in BR ownership. Yellow UTS tickets are now seldom seen I think this was an urban myth as the Rapid and Mini printer had a five figure ticket number and would require 100,000 tickets to be run off. Another was the strange case of Bromley By Bow ticket office and station burning down shortly before the LT takeover of the stations. A factual one was the safe being stolen on the last evening of the temporary ticket office in the road outside Hornchurch Station before the new UTS office was due to open. The safe was found cut open by the Ingerbourne River at the end of Hacton Drive. This was an echo of the safe at Wapping Station, in the early 1960's, that stuck out in an alleyway being stolen shortly before the Top station was rebuilt. Shoreditch station which in my day was closed at weekends was another that used to suffer break-ins even though no money was kept there. |
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