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Post by A60stock on Dec 30, 2014 19:07:08 GMT
Not sure if this has been discussed before, but why is it that all electrified main routes south of london seem to have 3rd rail power whereas those north of london as overhead wires? Im not including routes that remain within london only
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
Posts: 1,316
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Post by castlebar on Dec 30, 2014 19:33:56 GMT
A one word answer would be "history"
To elaborate, most of the decisions were taken before nationalisation (1948) as the Southern companies had decided to "do their own thing" many years earlier. (There is a lot on wiki re Southern Railway companies' electrification). Other companies were much later players with electrification, and I think 3rd rail was just simply not in favour when later decisions were made (exception: L M S Euston & Broad Street services)
There is MUCH more meat for others to put on these bones for you as their knowledge is superior to mine.
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Post by metrailway on Dec 30, 2014 19:59:49 GMT
Castlebar is right. It is down to history. After the 1923 grouping, the newly formed Southern Railway had two types of electrification systems: 6600V AC overhead system from the LBSCR, 600V DC third rail from the LSWR. The Southern Railway decided to have a common electrification standard across its new system and chose 660V DC third rail in August 1926 despite a 1921 Ministry of Transport Electrification committee deciding on a nationwide standard of 1500V DC overhead. After 1923, out of the Big Four, only the Southern electrifed a large amount of railway. With nationalisation, BR started to electrify lines with the 1500V DC overhead system agreed in 1921. A notable line electrified by BR using this system is the ex GCR between Sheffield and Manchester via Woodhead In 1956, BR decided to adopt 25 kV AC overhead as standard for all projects outside of the ex Southern Railway area. The first major project using this system was the West Coast Main Line.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 30, 2014 20:23:00 GMT
High voltage systems are better suited to long-distance transmission but have to use overhead cables for safety reasons. Low voltage systems are cheaper to install (no modifications to bridges and tunnels), although substations need to be closer together because of the greater transmission losses. High voltage systems also need more on-board equipment (transformers etc, to get down to traction-compatible voltages) so are proportionally more expensive when used on intensive services.
The choice of system by each company depended on the preferences of the companies' electrical engineers and their aspirations. So the LSWR wanted to biuld up a suburban network as quickly as possible, and went for dc 3rd rail. The Met originally wanted to use overhead, whilst the District wanted a 4-rail system: a parliamentary commission had to arbitrate and found in favour of the District. The LNWR's London area operation was integrated with the Bakerloo line (part of its raison d'etre being to take local traffic out of Euston), so had to use the same 4-rail system. The NER, electrified some of its network on overhead. The LBSCR, with aspirations to electrify its main lines as well as the suburbs, started on an ac overhead network, but after merger with the LSWR to form the Southern the (largely ex-LSWR) management standardised on the LSWR's dc system (which, being both simpler to install and not reliant on German suppliers, had become much more extensive in the decade preceding 1923). The LNER started a number of 1500V dc overhead schemes in the late thirties, but these were only completed c1950, under BR's auspices. By 1950, the only BR lines in London that were electrified were the Southern (on the former LSWR dc system), the LNWR local lines to Watford (which had to be to the LT 4-rail system), and the former GER local lines to Shenfield (1500Vdc ohle). By the 1955 Modernisation Plan, ac technology had become more portable and all subsequent projects have been built to this standard, and some (e.g the GE lines) have been converted. This includes the longer-distance services out of Euston, the "dc lines" (now the Overground) being conveniently self-contained.
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Post by melikepie on Dec 30, 2014 20:58:12 GMT
Should I point out that HS1 is OHE and if the Electrical Spine project continues, so will be parts of the SWML?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 30, 2014 23:10:43 GMT
Should I point out that HS1 is OHE and if the Electrical Spine project continues, so will be parts of the SWML? Both ends of Crossrail (Abbey Wood and Maidenhead/Reading) are south of the river too, and that will be OHLE.
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Post by domh245 on Dec 31, 2014 7:50:32 GMT
I'll also point out that merseyrail is 3rd rail, and there was also a 3rd rail scheme in the Tyneside area.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 31, 2014 8:20:30 GMT
Where goods trains are a significant part of the traffic OHLE was usually preferred because of the dangers of live rails to staff in marshalling yards. Some locomotives, such as the Southern's classes 70 and 71, and the NERs two Tyneside shunting engines, could take power from both above and below, so that they could operate on the 3rd rail fitted local lines and in marshalling yards where overhead cables were fitted. www.semgonline.com/electric/pics/srly_cc1-3.jpgwww.railuk.info/gallery/diesel/pretops/26500_b.jpg
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class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,746
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Post by class411 on Dec 31, 2014 8:38:10 GMT
Electrostars seem to be capable of dual source operation (if so fitted) as I sometimes see retracted pantographs on instances of that stock I have just travelled on on 3R trackwork.
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Post by grahamhewett on Dec 31, 2014 8:58:30 GMT
melikepie - talk of the "Electric Spine"seems to have slipped below the planning horizon in the last two years, presumably on cost grounds.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Dec 31, 2014 9:45:23 GMT
Electrostars seem to be capable of dual source operation (if so fitted) as I sometimes see retracted pantographs on instances of that stock I have just travelled on on 3R trackwork. If it's any help, there's a table giving the Electrostar variants and their power sources here: Electrostar
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Post by crusty54 on Dec 31, 2014 10:06:34 GMT
Electrostars seem to be capable of dual source operation (if so fitted) as I sometimes see retracted pantographs on instances of that stock I have just travelled on on 3R trackwork. If it's any help, there's a table giving the Electrostar variants and their power sources here: ElectrostarFor Thameslink and the Milton Keynes service
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 31, 2014 10:42:20 GMT
313s (for Moorgate services), 319s (for Thameslink), 325s (Royal Mail), 378s (for Overground Startford-Richmond/CJ services), and for a while 350s (when LM units were covering for a stock shortage on the Croydon-MK services) are also dual fitted. When new, the Eurostars were also dual fitted. Class 92 locos are also dual-equipped.
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Post by melikepie on Dec 31, 2014 14:26:18 GMT
melikepie - talk of the "Electric Spine"seems to have slipped below the planning horizon in the last two years, presumably on cost grounds. It still seems to be going ahead link
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Post by grahamhewett on Dec 31, 2014 17:36:07 GMT
melikepie - There are some very careful weasel words there about"considering the case for conversion" - in Whitehall speak, that's several million light years away from a commitment to do anything
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Post by roboverground on Dec 31, 2014 18:13:04 GMT
A few places with both - North Pole on the West London Line, Drayton Park on the Great Northern Moorgate branch and between Farringdon & City Thameslink, Camden to Euston slow lines and not sure if it has been replaced following recent/current upgrade platform 9 at Watford Junction (down fast south end of) that permitted units to transfer to/from Bletchley depot for maintenance. Any other dual voltage sections?
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Post by domh245 on Dec 31, 2014 18:47:18 GMT
There is some dual voltage section on the NLL at south Acton isn't there?
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Post by melikepie on Dec 31, 2014 19:39:14 GMT
No that's Acton Central
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