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Guards
Dec 24, 2014 8:11:45 GMT
Post by jamesb on Dec 24, 2014 8:11:45 GMT
South West Trains seems one of the only companies to retain train guards.
But, do they help or hinder the passengers (controversial point I know)...
Firstly, SW Trains is about the only train I am ever on where there is an annoying delay of up to 10 seconds at every station before the doors are released. Apparently, this is because from the guards position in the train,s/ he cannot be certain that the driver has stopped in the correct position so must physically check by stepping off and looking up the length of the train before opening the doors. If the driver was to open the doors, s/he would know that he is stopped in the correct position so could open them immediately.
Secondly, the guard always announces "you can find me currently located in the middle of this 8 coach train" for assistance BUT the guard is almost always locked in the centre driving cab of the 8 coach train, away from the passengers.
I wonder why SW trains has retained guards on all services?
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paulsw2
My Train Runs For Those Who Wait Not Wait For Those That Run
Posts: 303
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Guards
Dec 24, 2014 9:44:11 GMT
Post by paulsw2 on Dec 24, 2014 9:44:11 GMT
I think the original reason that guards are still on Southern West (now South West Trains) is that the drivers refused to go DOO unlike on Southern Central (Southern Trains) and Southern East (South Eastern ).
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Guards
Dec 24, 2014 10:06:06 GMT
Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 24, 2014 10:06:06 GMT
I for one am very grateful that SWT does still have guards, as the driver of the train I fell under would have been unlikely to see me do it. (To this day I have no memory of how I ended up there).
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Guards
Dec 24, 2014 14:44:34 GMT
Post by 100andthirty on Dec 24, 2014 14:44:34 GMT
London Midland lines out of Euston (and, perhaps, others) still have guards. They too have the annoying "step onto the platform to check it's there" palaver. Combined with the slow doors on the Desiro trains, this makes for a less than effective dwell time. A guard could still be a guard - and indeed possibly do a better job than the driver - if the driver released the doors, but the guard managed boarding and alighting and closed the doors. Also on LM, the guards do a lot of revenue protection work, especially off peak.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 19:45:37 GMT
What causes the 'delay' on a conventionally crewed train is due to silly policies such as jumping out first to check the train is in the platform and the addition of policies like this by management. This could be simply solved by having a car marker that lines up with middle/rear cabs when the train is fully platformed or like London Midland have done on the Redditch line, paint a second line along the platform edge to indicate that the train is fully platformed. These policies and also modern rolling stock designs seem to all go against conventionally crewed trains.
Southern's Class 377s are one of the worst for this, although there are door close buttons away from the drivers desk on a 'Guards Panel' next to the cab doors they are not wired up and to work a train from a middle or rear cab the Guards have to use a very time consuming bell code system. This is, pressing 1 - 2 for the driver to close the doors, the driver repeats it back and presses his door close button, the Guard observes the doors have closed fully, closes his cab door and then signals the 2 bells Ready to Start code which the driver repeats back. This compared to the driver simply closing the doors and observing he has the pilot light and looking in his monitors makes the crewed train seem the unnatractive option.
When the Class 375, 377s and most recently the 378s were introduced, another job was removed sneakily from the Guard from these trains, the drivers on all crewed Electrostar trains are responsible for opening or 'releasing' the doors instead of the Guard. This has resulted in many wrong side door openings due to human error which could have been easily avoided if the Guard was in control of door openings.
Train Operating Companies will argue that having the driver in control of the doors allows the Guard to concentrate on customer service jobs such as walking up and down the train assisting passengers but let's face it on a packed peak time commuter train you won't be able get through and everyone knows where theyre going anyway. Even if the Guard was to control the doors from inside the train like most TOCs want them to do nowadays the Platform Train Interface is neglected as the Guard is unable to see the train in and out from a droplight window with his/her head out of the window.
Basically everything goes against crewed trains and it will only take a major accident for crewing to be looked at on the modern railway. Till then it's cheaper just to risk the lives of the general public than try to avoid deaths in an accident.
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Guards
Dec 25, 2014 13:53:00 GMT
Post by arun on Dec 25, 2014 13:53:00 GMT
Piers O'Connor made the point [in one of his "Underground News" articles [though it related to use of guards on C2C Fenchurch Street services]] that increasingly drivers on DOO trains felt isolated from their passengers and, perhaps consequently even alienated from them. By employing guards who might one day "progress" to being drivers, it ensured "down the line" that drivers would always retain some concept of what it was they were being employed to do i.e., move passengers rather than just moving rolling stock. Whilst therefore employing guards might not immediately be seen as cost-effective, over time it does make considerable sense in maintaining staff-customer rapport and even self-respect.
Arun
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Guards
Dec 25, 2014 18:27:13 GMT
Post by Chris W on Dec 25, 2014 18:27:13 GMT
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Dec 25, 2014 19:18:17 GMT
He forgave Morecombe and Wise!
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Guards
Dec 25, 2014 21:58:29 GMT
Post by arun on Dec 25, 2014 21:58:29 GMT
Whoops - sorry about that Piers
For your convenience [not you Piers] I have included part of Piers's coments on the value of guards et al as Piers explains it far better than I could:
"A few years ago, the Underground tried an experiment in recruiting drivers "off the street". A 22-week training programme was devised and a batch of hopefuls was put through it They were called "DROPS" (Direct Recruit OPeratorS). It was not a roaring success. The failure rate was high and subsequent performance was not always as good as hoped for. Now they are trying again. With over 200 new drivers needed to cover the training and expansion associated with new train delivery and line upgrades, a recruitment campaign started in March was overwhelmed with 10,000 applications. Needless to say, they had to close the campaign rather quickly and they are still trying to process the applications. By all accounts, the recruitment process is complex and counter-intuitive. In one case, a former driver of good standing was turned down after waiting 6 months to hear the result of his application to rejoin.
Why do I say "counter-intuitive? Well, not unreasonably, the modem focus is on "customer care". New station staff are recruited on their willingness to deal with people and help others in trouble, plus an apparent ability to sooth angry or puzzled passengers, not get upset when abused and to cope with various forms of safety and evacuation processes. Most train staff are recruited from "Customer Service Assistants' (CSAs). This is not usually the type of person who is happy to sit alone in a cab, content amidst the flashy control technology of the train, testing his braking skills at each platform, watching the road ahead for hours on end in the dark and generally waiting long periods for something unusual to happen. From this, it might be thought that people inclined towards train driving skills would not necessarily be the same sort of people who would be happier coping with hordes of lost Eurostar tourists at King's Cross, helping people with white sticks up the escalators at Oxford Circus or coaxing drug users out of the toilets at Baker Street.
This paradox might explain the increasing number of strange incidents of the past few years, where trains have been driven in the wrong direction, lengthy train failures have disabled services and train operators have made errors which are completely at odds with their training and with railway operation generally. Mindful of this problem, a possible solution presented itself to me after a conversation with someone working for c2c -the London, Tilbury and Southend Railway to you and me.
The L T&S operates trains of 4, 8 and 12-car formation. The routes are all equipped for DOO (Driver Only Operation) for up to 8-car trains but they have to employ guards on 12-car trains because of their length. My friend was engaged in a plan to get rid of these guards because of the expense of keeping them. I told him I would keep them. "Why?" he asked. "Because: I replied "You have a pool of new train drivers there. The guards get train operations experience, they will develop some experience of the technology and of rules for train operations, they will understand the issues which occur during disruptions, they will understand depots and how they interface with trains. They will learn something of signalling and control issues and they might even learn a bit about train failures and how to help handle them. You keep your guards" I told him, "It will ultimately be cheaper and safer than recruiting and training people off the street"."
This comes from Chapter 40 of "The Underground Electric Train" published initially [around 2008] in Underground News - The monthly journal of the London Underground Railway Society.
Arun
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Guards
Jan 2, 2015 14:12:21 GMT
Post by plasmid on Jan 2, 2015 14:12:21 GMT
Having used SW Trains for over the last year the obvious delay with the door opening is those Siemens trains (even though the time was improved within the last year). The doors on the old red trains are released much quicker.
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Post by wimblephil on Jan 2, 2015 14:48:39 GMT
Having used SW Trains for over the last year the obvious delay with the door opening is those Siemens trains (even though the time was improved within the last year). The doors on the old red trains are released much quicker. Generally they are, but it does depend on the guard. Sometime's your still stood there forever waiting! My tip (for the Red 'Metro Route' Class 455 stock) is to just push and hold the button once the train is stopping/has come to a stop, as unlike some other stock they don't need to be pressed after the button has lit up for the activation to be recognised, and therefore open immediately upon the guards release - you can really save yourself a milli-second or two!!!
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Guards
Jan 2, 2015 17:03:09 GMT
Post by philthetube on Jan 2, 2015 17:03:09 GMT
Although not perfect, good on train CCTV is a much safer way to despatch trains than relying on a system where you hope that no one does anything silly or has an accident after the right to depart has been given, and should also be the quickest to operate. I imagine that the cheapest to install and maintain is the system used by the overground where the cameras are train mounted.
There is no reason why monitors have to be in drivers cabs, a guards station can have an emergency stop button in case needed.
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Guards
Jan 2, 2015 22:10:42 GMT
Post by Tomcakes on Jan 2, 2015 22:10:42 GMT
Most TOCs use guards - it's only a few running inner suburban services really which don't. In most areas guards are key to collecting revenue as stations do not have sufficient ticketing facilities.
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Guards
Jan 3, 2015 1:14:34 GMT
Post by superteacher on Jan 3, 2015 1:14:34 GMT
Greater Anglia is driver only. They only have guards on 12 coach services which operate over sections with platforms that can only take 8 coaches, such as certain stations on the Braintree branch. Once on the main line, the guard gets off.
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Guards
Jan 3, 2015 10:05:42 GMT
Post by pgb on Jan 3, 2015 10:05:42 GMT
Most TOCs use guards - it's only a few running inner suburban services really which don't. In most areas guards are key to collecting revenue as stations do not have sufficient ticketing facilities. I think the phrase guard is only used by a couple of TOCs. If I remember correctly, SWT have Guards and Commercial Guards (these collect revenue). East Coast have Guards (apparently) the others tend to go for Conductor, Senior Conductor and Train Manager. The difference between these terms can easily be a long debate!
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Guards
Jan 3, 2015 11:10:31 GMT
via mobile
Post by domh245 on Jan 3, 2015 11:10:31 GMT
I personally am in favour of the Strathclyde/ SE highspeed system where the train is DOO, but there are ticket inspectors/train managers on board to focus on customer service. The driver does the doors and dispatch, minimising delay, and the second man makes sure that the customers are ok. Win win it would seem, but then the issue of pay and cost rears it's head (but then, where doesn't it!) - how much do you pay your second person, do you still want them to be in a safety crticial role in the event of an emergency (protecting the line etc) or could you contract it out to some security firm to do. That is where the difficulties lie
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rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,286
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Guards
Jan 3, 2015 13:00:02 GMT
Post by rincew1nd on Jan 3, 2015 13:00:02 GMT
I *think* that the Rule Book still refers to them as Guards.
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