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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 14:29:57 GMT
Having traveled on the S8 stock for my regular commute, I believe there are two major improvements required. I would be interested to hear your views on these:
1> I consider this to be a major safety issue when on a busy train. Once everyone has boarded the train, the doors will close with a sound. If you are on a packed train, people will generally lead on the doors for a more comfortable journey.
However, if there is an item shut in any of the doors or they are unable to close, the driver may look to release all the doors and commence closing again. As a passenger, I have never heard the driver make an announcement that the doors will reopen nor is there any sound for them commencing opening. Thus the doors fly open and it is amazing how someone hasn’t fallen out of the train. I consider this to be a major hazard, as it only takes one person to fall and they could potentially fall in-between the gap.
2> This issue is more of an customer problem. Throughout the journey, the information screen will inform you about where there train is going etc. However in the last, say 30 seconds before arriving at a station, the train will no longer display anything. This is rather frustrating. When you are heading into a platform, it is quite important that a customer can see what the station is. Otherwise, it will only display again once the doors have opened.
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Post by pgb on Dec 4, 2014 15:42:27 GMT
Having traveled on the S8 stock for my regular commute, I believe there are two major improvements required. I would be interested to hear your views on these: 1> I consider this to be a major safety issue when on a busy train. Once everyone has boarded the train, the doors will close with a sound. If you are on a packed train, people will generally lead on the doors for a more comfortable journey. However, if there is an item shut in any of the doors or they are unable to close, the driver may look to release all the doors and commence closing again. As a passenger, I have never heard the driver make an announcement that the doors will reopen nor is there any sound for them commencing opening. Thus the doors fly open and it is amazing how someone hasn’t fallen out of the train. I consider this to be a major hazard, as it only takes one person to fall and they could potentially fall in-between the gap. 2> This issue is more of an customer problem. Throughout the journey, the information screen will inform you about where there train is going etc. However in the last, say 30 seconds before arriving at a station, the train will no longer display anything. This is rather frustrating. When you are heading into a platform, it is quite important that a customer can see what the station is. Otherwise, it will only display again once the doors have opened. 1) Hasn't this always been the case with any train? Yes, you have the issue that the doors self close after a while and a full release may be taken, but generally this has been going on for years. 2) I wouldn't think this would cause much of an issue - generally anybody landing at a terminus (bar the odd drunk) knows where they are going. I'm actually amazed people listen to them! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 16:04:42 GMT
Regarding the doors, normally something is not altered unless something has happened to warrant the alteration. If someone fell out of a train from the doors reopening, then something will be put in place. Normally common sense works, but you do tend to get a few people who do not think, and it is normally these people who ruin something for everyone else.
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Post by domh245 on Dec 4, 2014 16:42:06 GMT
I'll confess to leaning on the doors and being taken by suprise when they open, but I, like most people who are caught out by this, have seemingly sufficient reflexes to take our weight off of the door as it starts opening - even when using earphones! I've yet to see anyone fall out of the door by surprise.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 4, 2014 19:17:42 GMT
However, if there is an item shut in any of the doors or they are unable to close, the driver may look to release all the doors and commence closing again. As a passenger, I have never heard the driver make an announcement that the doors will reopen nor is there any sound for them commencing opening. Thus the doors fly open and it is amazing how someone hasn’t fallen out of the train. I consider this to be a major hazard, as it only takes one person to fall and they could potentially fall in-between the gap. Surely this is true of all stock though? If anything the latest stock has advantages in that it does make a noise when the doors are commanded open. 2> This issue is more of an customer problem. Throughout the journey, the information screen will inform you about where there train is going etc. However in the last, say 30 seconds before arriving at a station, the train will no longer display anything. This is rather frustrating. When you are heading into a platform, it is quite important that a customer can see what the station is. Otherwise, it will only display again once the doors have opened. I invented a solution to this, they're called windows. To further improve this I propose mandating that station name signs should be displayed so that one is always visible from inside the train, oh and a high level frieze so you can still read it over passengers heads. Oh, hang on, isn't this already the case? |
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Dom K
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Post by Dom K on Dec 4, 2014 19:47:17 GMT
Gods knows how people in the old days coped without all the automation of today! People forget that this is how it was! Buses with steps and ringing the bell once and trains that you looked out the window to see where you should get off/refer to internal map! They should have a day of switching all the automated announcements off and see if people notice!
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Post by uzairjubilee on Dec 4, 2014 19:56:23 GMT
2> This issue is more of an customer problem. Throughout the journey, the information screen will inform you about where there train is going etc. However in the last, say 30 seconds before arriving at a station, the train will no longer display anything. This is rather frustrating. When you are heading into a platform, it is quite important that a customer can see what the station is. Otherwise, it will only display again once the doors have opened. Didn't think anyone else would notice this. Personally I think it's just a weird way that way the S Stock CIS software is. A simple modification would allow the "The next station is.." message to scroll on the DMIs until the train actually arrives at the station, rather than the DMIs being blank for 30 seconds. |
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Post by superteacher on Dec 4, 2014 22:01:31 GMT
If you lean on a door, expect it to open at some point . . .
Have we become that much of a nanny state that nobody expects anybody to think for themselves?
Next, people will be asking for pavement edge doors just in case anybody falls into the road.
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Post by t697 on Dec 5, 2014 7:35:51 GMT
Didn't think anyone else would notice this. Personally I think it's just a weird way that way the S Stock CIS software is. A simple modification would allow the "The next station is.." message to scroll on the DMIs until the train actually arrives at the station, rather than the DMIs being blank for 30 seconds.
It is like this deliberately. LUL standards at the time of design specified that DMI scrolling texts had to complete before being replaced by another one. Hence the brief blank period, so that the 'at station' one can start promptly as soon as the doors are enabled. This maximises the benefit by not delaying the 'at station' visual message, which itself has several requirements about timeliness. With the longer approach messages including interchange etc, there would be a significant delay to the 'at station' one if the approach one had just started a new scroll cycle.
The quoted 30 seconds is an exaggeration unless the run-in is delayed.
And regarding the presentation of 'next station', the DMI tells you throughout the station to station run, surely the last few seconds hardly matter, especially when you can see the station through the windows. And yes there are standards about station name signs and window sizes and sightlines too....
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Dec 5, 2014 7:46:13 GMT
Gods knows how people in the old days coped without all the automation of today! People forget that this is how it was! Buses with steps and ringing the bell once and trains that you looked out the window to see where you should get off/refer to internal map! They should have a day of switching all the automated announcements off and see if people notice! Don't start me off. We're the architects of our own growing incapability. If it carries on like this we'll soon be getting nervous at the sight of mint sauce...... |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 5, 2014 8:35:45 GMT
1. Leaning on the doors will damage them, and on many trains will eventually cause the trains to lose door 'interlock' and apply the emergency brake as the train thinks the doors are open. Please do not do this. If you fall out for leaning on the door you may deserve it. What utter rubbish! TPTB are never shy about telling people what to do and what not to do and I have never in decades of using the underground heard or seen any suggestion that one should not lean on the doors. Anyone who designed a train for a rapid transit system with doors that could not withstand being leaned upon should be quickly reassigned to enquiring if people want frys with that. |
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Post by wimblephil on Dec 5, 2014 8:48:55 GMT
I have never in decades of using the underground heard or seen any suggestion that one should not lean on the doors. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic in this post. I hope so, otherwise have you ever even used the Underground...?! It is like this deliberately. LUL standards at the time of design specified that DMI scrolling texts had to complete before being replaced by another one. I did't realise that had been made a standard. It's good though; I don't like the way on other stock a message is halfway through and then is interrupted by 'This is X'. One thing that does bug me about the S-Stock displays (although not specific to them!) is just on the approach to the terminus station. Where just after leaving the preceding station it says, 'The next station is X. This is a Y line train to X', then moments later between the stations says, 'The next station is X, where this train terminates'. I think it should just play the second one from the get-go. The first feels redundant! |
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Post by v52gc on Dec 5, 2014 8:54:35 GMT
You shouldn't lean on the doors.
On the older stock it can cause loss of door closed visuals so the train can't move.
Otherwise I wouldn't lean on an electronically operated door, electrics can and do go wrong!
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Post by Chris M on Dec 5, 2014 10:28:59 GMT
1. Leaning on the doors will damage them, and on many trains will eventually cause the trains to lose door 'interlock' and apply the emergency brake as the train thinks the doors are open. Please do not do this. If you fall out for leaning on the door you may deserve it. What utter rubbish! TPTB are never shy about telling people what to do and what not to do and I have never in decades of using the underground heard or seen any suggestion that one should not lean on the doors. Anyone who designed a train for a rapid transit system with doors that could not withstand being leaned upon should be quickly reassigned to enquiring if people want frys with that. Have you never travelled on the Central line in the rush hour? When I was using to commute between Debden and Liverpool Street earlier this year, I heard requests from the driver not to lean on the doors on at least ? of rush hour trips, probably more. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 5, 2014 10:33:48 GMT
I have never in decades of using the underground heard or seen any suggestion that one should not lean on the doors. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic in this post. I hope so, otherwise have you ever even used the Underground...?! When I said 'never', I meant as a general rule (i.e. no posters or gratuitous announcements) - I have, very occasionally, heard a driver ask people to move away from the doors if a particularly sticky passenger is causing them to open slightly on initial acceleration. My point being that it is in no way similar to the multitude of other deprecated activities ranging from standing too close to the platform edge to not putting your feet on seats and on to not eating smelly food. So the suggestion that anyone leaning on a door might deserve to fall out is not only stupid, it's downright offensive. |
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Post by North End on Dec 5, 2014 11:03:32 GMT
1. Leaning on the doors will damage them, and on many trains will eventually cause the trains to lose door 'interlock' and apply the emergency brake as the train thinks the doors are open. Please do not do this. If you fall out for leaning on the door you may deserve it. What utter rubbish! TPTB are never shy about telling people what to do and what not to do and I have never in decades of using the underground heard or seen any suggestion that one should not lean on the doors. Anyone who designed a train for a rapid transit system with doors that could not withstand being leaned upon should be quickly reassigned to enquiring if people want frys with that. If only things were so simple ... On the older trains, doors are designed to be able to open slightly, in order to allow any trapped items (e.g. coat strings) to be removed. This feature has been replaced on the 09 and S stocks with sensitive edge (allowing the doors to be locked closed), however the trade-off with this is spurious sensitive edge activations which cause delay. Regarding the older trains, the pushback has to be sufficiently strong that it doesn't happen all the time, but weak enough that people can push the door if in emergency they need to remove something. So it's not hard to see that, sometimes, someone leaning against a door will cause the door to open slightly, hence the train will then lost pilot light. The engineering trade-offs required for this are, like much railway engineering, something of a compromise, so when operating in a harsh environment occasionally things will break, Certainly if a train is repeatedly losing pilot lights, drivers may make an announcement asking people to avoid leaning against the doors. The alternative is to withdraw the train from service, which tends to resolve the issue allowing it to re-enter at the next station! Personally, I wouldn't lean against a door just in case they are opened in error, it shouldn't happen, and there are safety systems built in to ensure it doesn't, but if the unthinkable happens and you happen to be leaning against the door at the time, guess who might end up falling straight on the +ve rail! |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Dec 5, 2014 11:23:45 GMT
So the suggestion that anyone leaning on a door might deserve to fall out is not only stupid, it's downright offensive. .....as is insinuating that anyone who works in a fast food outlet serving fries is stupid. My daughter worked in a well known burger outlet while she studied for her degree, which she has now passed with distinction. She counts a lot of the full time employees, her former colleagues, amongst her friends to this day and some of them are still there despite their degree holder status. Please remember that a lot of people have no choice where they end up working, regardless of qualifications or ability. |
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Post by class411 on Dec 5, 2014 11:45:51 GMT
What utter rubbish! TPTB are never shy about telling people what to do and what not to do and I have never in decades of using the underground heard or seen any suggestion that one should not lean on the doors. Anyone who designed a train for a rapid transit system with doors that could not withstand being leaned upon should be quickly reassigned to enquiring if people want frys with that. Have you never travelled on the Central line in the rush hour? When I was using to commute between Debden and Liverpool Street earlier this year, I heard requests from the driver not to lean on the doors on at least ? of rush hour trips, probably more. I have (although not regularly, lately), but my experience was quite different. In fact, the last time I regularly used the central line in the rush hour it was probably the previous stock - and it's clearly stock related, since for a couple of years I regularly caught a packed District line D Stock with people pressed against the doors and do not ever recollect that announcement. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 5, 2014 11:50:46 GMT
So the suggestion that anyone leaning on a door might deserve to fall out is not only stupid, it's downright offensive. .....as is insinuating that anyone who works in a fast food outlet serving fries is stupid. My daughter worked in a well known burger outlet while she studied for her degree, which she has now passed with distinction. She counts a lot of the full time employees, her former colleagues, amongst her friends to this day and some of them are still there despite their degree holder status. Please remember that a lot of people have no choice where they end up working, regardless of qualifications or ability. You are guilty of a logical fallacy here. In fact, probably the most common logical fallacy of all. (Usually exemplified as: All cows have four legs therefore all four legged animals are cows.) Just because working in a fast food outlet is a suitable job for people of limited intelligence does not mean that working in a fast food outlet necessarily implies limited intelligence. In fact, in university towns, almost certainly quite the reverse, certainly in the evenings and at weekends. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 5, 2014 12:00:27 GMT
What utter rubbish! TPTB are never shy about telling people what to do and what not to do and I have never in decades of using the underground heard or seen any suggestion that one should not lean on the doors. Anyone who designed a train for a rapid transit system with doors that could not withstand being leaned upon should be quickly reassigned to enquiring if people want frys with that. If only things were so simple ... On the older trains, doors are designed to be able to open slightly, in order to allow any trapped items (e.g. coat strings) to be removed. This feature has been replaced on the 09 and S stocks with sensitive edge (allowing the doors to be locked closed), however the trade-off with this is spurious sensitive edge activations which cause delay. Regarding the older trains, the pushback has to be sufficiently strong that it doesn't happen all the time, but weak enough that people can push the door if in emergency they need to remove something. So it's not hard to see that, sometimes, someone leaning against a door will cause the door to open slightly, hence the train will then lost pilot light. The engineering trade-offs required for this are, like much railway engineering, something of a compromise, so when operating in a harsh environment occasionally things will break, Certainly if a train is repeatedly losing pilot lights, drivers may make an announcement asking people to avoid leaning against the doors. The alternative is to withdraw the train from service, which tends to resolve the issue allowing it to re-enter at the next station! Personally, I wouldn't lean against a door just in case they are opened in error, it shouldn't happen, and there are safety systems built in to ensure it doesn't, but if the unthinkable happens and you happen to be leaning against the door at the time, guess who might end up falling straight on the +ve rail! My comment was directed at the statement that the doors might be damaged by people leaning on them. Given that that happens all the time it clearly is being allowed for in the design of the mechanisms, and only an idiot would design a mechanism that could not cope. As to falling out of the train if the door open unexpectedly - meh - I don't know how many billions of underground journeys have been undertaken over the years but I've never heard of it happening. The doors really don't open fast enough for anyone not to adjust their stance to cope. I know this from personal experience. Even if you are leaning on the centre divide you don't come vaguely close to losing your balance. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 12:08:09 GMT
The big issue with the S7 & S8's for me is the risks associated with having full width access through the train with no end bulkheads. In the dangerous the World we live in we appear to have learnt nothing about train design and potential threats!
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Post by North End on Dec 5, 2014 12:52:22 GMT
If only things were so simple ... On the older trains, doors are designed to be able to open slightly, in order to allow any trapped items (e.g. coat strings) to be removed. This feature has been replaced on the 09 and S stocks with sensitive edge (allowing the doors to be locked closed), however the trade-off with this is spurious sensitive edge activations which cause delay. Regarding the older trains, the pushback has to be sufficiently strong that it doesn't happen all the time, but weak enough that people can push the door if in emergency they need to remove something. So it's not hard to see that, sometimes, someone leaning against a door will cause the door to open slightly, hence the train will then lost pilot light. The engineering trade-offs required for this are, like much railway engineering, something of a compromise, so when operating in a harsh environment occasionally things will break, Certainly if a train is repeatedly losing pilot lights, drivers may make an announcement asking people to avoid leaning against the doors. The alternative is to withdraw the train from service, which tends to resolve the issue allowing it to re-enter at the next station! Personally, I wouldn't lean against a door just in case they are opened in error, it shouldn't happen, and there are safety systems built in to ensure it doesn't, but if the unthinkable happens and you happen to be leaning against the door at the time, guess who might end up falling straight on the +ve rail! My comment was directed at the statement that the doors might be damaged by people leaning on them. Given that that happens all the time it clearly is being allowed for in the design of the mechanisms, and only an idiot would design a mechanism that could not cope. As to falling out of the train if the door open unexpectedly - meh - I don't know how many billions of underground journeys have been undertaken over the years but I've never heard of it happening. The doors really don't open fast enough for anyone not to adjust their stance to cope. I know this from personal experience. Even if you are leaning on the centre divide you don't come vaguely close to losing your balance. Whether or not it has happened, LUL takes this risk sufficiently seriously that there is an extremely thorough and lengthy procedure to be followed in the event of a wrong-side door opening, which includes discharging traction current and carrying out a visual track check. Certainly wrong-side door openings do occur from time to time, and of course remember during the Chancery Lane derailment doors opened on one or more cars due to wiring damage caused during the derailment. I have certainly investigated and written quite a few reports where people have fallen out of opening doors in platforms, in most cases the passengers have themselves stated "I was leaning against the doors when they opened...", so it certainly can and does happen. |
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Post by North End on Dec 5, 2014 12:55:12 GMT
The big issue with the S7 & S8's for me is the risks associated with having full width access through the train with no end bulkheads. In the dangerous the World we live in we appear to have learnt nothing about train design and potential threats! It amuses me that train designers have gone to considerable lengths in recent years to ensure people are retained inside the train in the unlikely event of an accident (one of the biggest causes of injury or death is being ejected from the vehicle), then on recent designs carriages have been specified which are open at one or both ends. Maybe not a high risk at low speed, but S stock can reach 60 mph, and the forthcoming Thameslink trains will reach 100 mph, which is certainly enough for people to be thrown around violently during a collision or derailment. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 5, 2014 13:19:03 GMT
My comment was directed at the statement that the doors might be damaged by people leaning on them. Given that that happens all the time it clearly is being allowed for in the design of the mechanisms, and only an idiot would design a mechanism that could not cope. As to falling out of the train if the door open unexpectedly - meh - I don't know how many billions of underground journeys have been undertaken over the years but I've never heard of it happening. The doors really don't open fast enough for anyone not to adjust their stance to cope. I know this from personal experience. Even if you are leaning on the centre divide you don't come vaguely close to losing your balance. Whether or not it has happened, LUL takes this risk sufficiently seriously that there is an extremely thorough and lengthy procedure to be followed in the event of a wrong-side door opening, which includes discharging traction current and carrying out a visual track check. Certainly wrong-side door openings do occur from time to time, and of course remember during the Chancery Lane derailment doors opened on one or more cars due to wiring damage caused during the derailment. I have certainly investigated and written quite a few reports where people have fallen out of opening doors in platforms, in most cases the passengers have themselves stated "I was leaning against the doors when they opened...", so it certainly can and does happen. My point remains. No one has died as a result of falling out of a train because of an unexpected door opening. I should certainly hope that LU do take wrong side door openings seriously. They could be terrifying for any passengers of a nervous disposition. Not to mention the fact that ensuring safety is a cumulative process and all steps that can be taken to ensure it, should be taken, rather than relying on the final safeguard - that people seem to be able to take action to avoid falling out of opening doors even if they are leaning on them. |
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Post by North End on Dec 5, 2014 13:24:08 GMT
Whether or not it has happened, LUL takes this risk sufficiently seriously that there is an extremely thorough and lengthy procedure to be followed in the event of a wrong-side door opening, which includes discharging traction current and carrying out a visual track check. Certainly wrong-side door openings do occur from time to time, and of course remember during the Chancery Lane derailment doors opened on one or more cars due to wiring damage caused during the derailment. I have certainly investigated and written quite a few reports where people have fallen out of opening doors in platforms, in most cases the passengers have themselves stated "I was leaning against the doors when they opened...", so it certainly can and does happen. My point remains. No one has died as a result of falling out of a train because of an unexpected door opening. I should certainly hope that LU do take wrong side door openings seriously. They could be terrifying for any passengers of a nervous disposition. Not to mention the fact that ensuring safety is a cumulative process and all steps that can be taken to ensure it, should be taken, rather than relying on the final safeguard - that people seem to be able to take action to avoid falling out of opening doors even if they are leaning on them. Fatalities or not, there have certainly been some fairly serious injuries, including one that I can think of where the person involved became paralysed. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Dec 5, 2014 14:45:50 GMT
.....as is insinuating that anyone who works in a fast food outlet serving fries is stupid. My daughter worked in a well known burger outlet while she studied for her degree, which she has now passed with distinction. She counts a lot of the full time employees, her former colleagues, amongst her friends to this day and some of them are still there despite their degree holder status. Please remember that a lot of people have no choice where they end up working, regardless of qualifications or ability. You are guilty of a logical fallacy here. In fact, probably the most common logical fallacy of all. (Usually exemplified as: All cows have four legs therefore all four legged animals are cows.) Just because working in a fast food outlet is a suitable job for people of limited intelligence does not mean that working in a fast food outlet necessarily implies limited intelligence. In fact, in university towns, almost certainly quite the reverse, certainly in the evenings and at weekends. No mate, you offended me. Simples. |
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Post by Chris M on Dec 5, 2014 15:13:29 GMT
No one has died as a result of falling out of a train because of an unexpected door opening I haven't found anything from London Underground, but read www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=95768 for where it has happened on HSTs. |
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Post by Indefatigable on Dec 5, 2014 15:46:17 GMT
1. Leaning on the doors will damage them, and on many trains will eventually cause the trains to lose door 'interlock' and apply the emergency brake as the train thinks the doors are open. Please do not do this. If you fall out for leaning on the door you may deserve it. What utter rubbish! TPTB are never shy about telling people what to do and what not to do and I have never in decades of using the underground heard or seen any suggestion that one should not lean on the doors. Anyone who designed a train for a rapid transit system with doors that could not withstand being leaned upon should be quickly reassigned to enquiring if people want frys with that. With respect, class411, I was on the network only the other week and saw stickers on all tube stock request that nobody leant on the doors - with audible warnings by the driver on 72, 92, D and S7/8 stock. The stickers are located on, above or to the side of the doors themselves - even I know that much! |
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Post by Hassaan on Dec 5, 2014 16:22:59 GMT
Have you never travelled on the Central line in the rush hour? When I was using to commute between Debden and Liverpool Street earlier this year, I heard requests from the driver not to lean on the doors on at least ? of rush hour trips, probably more. I have (although not regularly, lately), but my experience was quite different. In fact, the last time I regularly used the central line in the rush hour it was probably the previous stock - and it's clearly stock related, since for a couple of years I regularly caught a packed District line D Stock with people pressed against the doors and do not ever recollect that announcement. I've had those announcements on the Jubilee Line as well, although it doesn't happen very often. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 16:53:16 GMT
The announcements about leaning on the doors are a regular feature of the Central line and the only reason announcements aren't made more often is because the T/Ops just get used to it - what's the point in making the same announcement every other stop, every day. None. Most of the time people stop or are jolted from the doors anyway and you do get away from the station; announcements usually come if it keeps happening. Sometimes ne'er-do-wells do it deliberately.
Doors coming open and consequent loss of DCV and round train shouldn't, however, be a problem on the S stock because they don't employ a small amount of give to help you free yourself from the doors, but instead use sensitive edges as stated. I can't imagine they come apart very easily and they're pretty heavy. They also don't use air to operate the doors, they're electric.
The fact is, the old safety system (small amount of give so you can tug clothes and stuff free) allowed the doors, by design, to be opened a bit. With a design like this and the amount of door cycles, they are going to be able to be broken when abused. Doors do break, they break all the time. Stuff, in general, breaks. But things're especially likely to break when people behave like buffoons with them. It is understood that the trains have to be designed to bear the brunt of heavy usage and also a fair amount of moron-ry inherent in serving the general public. But the trains are not designed for use in warfare. Generally I'm not sure simply leaning on the doors is going to harm them much, but forcing them and sticking limbs and luggage and what have you in them will eventually take its toll. People can't go around treating the trains - or things generally, really - carelessly - or, worse, downright badly - and yet maintain an outrageous sense of entitlement and take the view that if I break it, it must have been badly designed. By all means complain about LU's trains, ultimately, if you're a Londoner, your taxes help pay for them and - if you use the tube - your fares do, too. By all means, also, expect the trains to have been designed for heavy use, wear and tear and a reasonable amount of general idiocy. However, also take some care of them, don't use them like a litter bin, try not to spill your food all over them, don't stick chewing gum to the seats of them, don't obstruct the doors, try and avoid leaning on the doors (not always easy in rush hour - fair enough). Just take some care and if you don't and the train goes defective in service because of it, don't act like its somebody else's fault. It isn't. It's yours.
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