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Post by 35b on Apr 20, 2016 12:44:18 GMT
These trains could be a low cost option to provide public services on some of heritage lines on weekdays and enable these railways to increase their revenues! XF Informed Sources suggest that the lease costs of these in their most basic form is not that much cheaper than buying new when the shorter life is considered. It is also noticeable that the trial running on GWR hasn't yet happened, despite being planned for late last year. I will be very surprised if they do go mainline.
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Post by phil on Apr 20, 2016 19:30:41 GMT
Can't see any chance of downgrading an electric service to diesel! I hope those days are well-and-truly over. The Lymington branch adopted the method of working I described around 5 years ago and it hasn't done that line any harm. In any case the ONLY reason BR wired the Romford - Upminster branch was to make things easier at Illford depot and not have it hang onto a couple of 1st generation DMUs in what was otherwise a completely electric area - a 4 car electric unit was, and still is overkill for what the branch requires in capacity terms. It was never done as some sort of grand plan to upgrade the service - even if that is what BR may have sold it to the public as. With the need by TfL to hire in a unit to operate the branch (at present because of stock shortages and in the future because the Crossrail stock will be way too long) does it really make that much difference to what the motive power is on a one train worked single track shuttle service? As I have pointed out a totally self contained line with a depot not that far away and with other transport options relatively easy to come by in case of problems, the Upminster branch is an ideal place to run trials.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 20, 2016 20:28:38 GMT
There was talk at one time of de-electrifying north of Newcastle, as most services had to be diesel anyway as they either ran north of Edinburgh or, south of York ran to Leeds or Sheffield and beyond, so the cost of maintaining the infrastructure was hard to justify.
St Pancras, electrified in 1982, lost all its electric services in 1988 when they went down the hole. Apart from brief periods when the Thameslink core was shut, scheduled electric services only returned to St Pancras in 2007
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Post by North End on Apr 20, 2016 21:43:26 GMT
There was talk at one time of de-electrifying north of Newcastle, as most services had to be diesel anyway as they either ran north of Edinburgh or, south of York ran to Leeds or Sheffield and beyond, so the cost of maintaining the infrastructure was hard to justify. St Pancras, electrified in 1982, lost all its electric services in 1988 when they went down the hole. Apart from brief periods when the Thameslink core was shut, scheduled electric services only returned to St Pancras in 2007 Hazel Grove to Stockport only sees a minimal electric service these days. Ignoring experimental or outdated schemes (eg Bury), or situations where lines have closed (eg Crystal Palace High Level), or lines converted to light rail (eg Altrincham) it's hard to think of electrified lines which have reverted to diesel and had the electrification fully removed. Doubtless there must be the odd spur or siding in places, but struggling to think of anything substantial at present.
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Post by phil on Apr 20, 2016 21:58:57 GMT
There was talk at one time of de-electrifying north of Newcastle, as most services had to be diesel anyway as they either ran north of Edinburgh or, south of York ran to Leeds or Sheffield and beyond, so the cost of maintaining the infrastructure was hard to justify. St Pancras, electrified in 1982, lost all its electric services in 1988 when they went down the hole. Apart from brief periods when the Thameslink core was shut, scheduled electric services only returned to St Pancras in 2007 Hazel Grove to Stockport only sees a minimal electric service these days. Ignoring experimental or outdated schemes (eg Bury), or situations where lines have closed (eg Crystal Palace High Level), or lines converted to light rail (eg Altrincham) it's hard to think of electrified lines which have reverted to diesel and had the electrification fully removed. Doubtless there must be the odd spur or siding in places, but struggling to think of anything substantial at present. The ex LNER lines around Newcastle -Upon-Tyne had their 3rd rail removed in the early 70s and became worked by DMUs till they were electrified again as part of the Metro.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 20, 2016 22:47:52 GMT
Hazel Grove to Stockport only sees a minimal electric service these days. Ignoring experimental or outdated schemes (eg Bury), or situations where lines have closed (eg Crystal Palace High Level), or lines converted to light rail (eg Altrincham) it's hard to think of electrified lines which have reverted to diesel and had the electrification fully removed.. The ex LNER lines around Newcastle -Upon-Tyne had their 3rd rail removed in the early 70s and became worked by DMUs till they were electrified again as part of the Metro. I mnetioned Tyneside in my post yesterday (at 20;18) Apart from hazel Grove, all the examples cited by "465" were either closed completely (CPHL) or converted from one electrification system to another (e.g light rail) such as both Bury and Altrincham. Other examples of complete closure include the Midland's Lancaster - Morecambe system (although the de-electrified extension to Heysham remains open, now connected to Lancaster only through the ex-LNWR route which was never electrified) the Bury-Holcombe Brook line, the Liverpool Overhead Railway and, closer to home, the Ongar, Aldwych and South Acton shuttles. The Wimbledon-West Croydon line is a local example of conversion to light rail.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 20, 2016 23:10:12 GMT
The North London Line falls into all those categories: the Camden Road - North Woolwich section has been converted from top-contact 3rd rail to OHL from Camden to just north of Stratford, converted to DLR (bottom-contact 3rd rail) between there and Canning Town, is in the process of being rebuilt with OHLE for Crossrail from Canning Town to just short of North Woolwich and closed completely beyond there. The East London Line core and New Cross branch were converted from 4th to 3rd rail electrification. I'm not sure OTTOMH whether any of the changes for the East London Line extension in the Highbury & Islington-Canonbury area resulted in any trackbed being converted from OHLE to 3rd rail electrification or not, however the short stretch of line between Highbury & Islington platform 2 and the present North London Line has had it's electrification removed - although as no services regularly use it, it could be counted as closed and it certainly within the spirit of North End's "odd spur or siding".
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Post by North End on Apr 21, 2016 0:19:19 GMT
The ex LNER lines around Newcastle -Upon-Tyne had their 3rd rail removed in the early 70s and became worked by DMUs till they were electrified again as part of the Metro. I mnetioned Tyneside in my post yesterday (at 20;18) Apart from hazel Grove, all the examples cited by "465" were either closed completely (CPHL) or converted from one electrification system to another (e.g light rail) such as both Bury and Altrincham. Other examples of complete closure include the Midland's Lancaster - Morecambe system (although the de-electrified extension to Heysham remains open, now connected to Lancaster only through the ex-LNWR route which was never electrified) the Bury-Holcombe Brook line, the Liverpool Overhead Railway and, closer to home, the Ongar, Aldwych and South Acton shuttles. The Wimbledon-West Croydon line is a local example of conversion to light rail. I think from memory Lancaster-Heysham could be considered as an experimental scheme, as well as non-standard. And, as you say, the bulk of the electrified section was closed. Good shout with north/south Tyneside. I'm not sure if the T&W Metro was in sights at the time either of the networks were converted to diesel, if not then this is definitely a possibility for having been "de-electrified", especially as I don't believe this system was particularly non-standard, except that it was a small scheme remote from any similar installation. It might have gone on to cause interface difficulties when the ECML electrication occurred, but this was a long way into the future. I think there were a few off-shoots of the Woodhead scheme that are still open but no longer electrified. Again, however, the scheme was non-standard and superfluous once the main route was closed, so again I don't think these qualify. Another oddity is Ardingly where the line was electrified as part of the Brighton scheme. But, again, the primary motivation for removal of electrification was closure of the passenger service and most of the branch. So it seems that if we're looking for a de-electrification that was a conscious decision rather than inspired by technical or line-closure/re-building reasons, unless anything has been missed it seems Tyneside is the only real major example.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 21, 2016 6:50:12 GMT
Various sections of the formerly-dc-electrified Woodhead route are still in use. The central section under the Pennines lost its passenger service in 1971 and was closed completely in 1981. The dc electrification was shut down over the entire route at the same time. From Manchester as far as Hadfield, together with the Glossop branch, was converted to ac. On the other side of the Pennines, trains continued to run as far as Penistone, on the route to Huddersfield (I am not aware of service patterns prior to 1971, it is probable that Penistone-Huddersfield was run as a diesel service connecting with the electric Sheffield-Manchester trains). Although at the time this was a conscious decision to run a diesel service over an electrified line (from 1971-1981), and over a de-electrified line (from 1981), funding was approved in 1983 to divert the service via Barnsley, so of the former electrified route only a short section in the Penistone area now sees passenger trains. (This diversion also avoided the awkward reversal at Nunnery Junction necessitated by trains on the GCR route via Deepcar using Midland rather than the closed Victoria station in Sheffield.
The Woodhead main line remains open for (diesel) freight from Deepcar into Sheffield. The electrification extended east of Sheffield as far as Tinsley marshalling yard, on the line to Retford, but the passenger services on that stretch were never electric, so de-electrification did not affect them.
Both ends of the Newport (Middlesborough) - Shildon line in Co Durham, de-electrified in the 1930s, are still in use for passenger traffic, but electric traction was only used for freight trains on the route.
Although the Midland Railway's electrification of Lancaster-Morecambe-Heysham was never expanded, I don't think it can be written off as purely experimental. The use of German technology may have inhibited expansion for the same reason as it did the Brighton's similar and contemporary system, but it operated for 43 years, essentially until the trains wore out. In the 1950s some of the infrastructure was used as a test bed for the higher-voltage systems to be introduced on the WCML, using converted units from the Earls Court-Willesden shuttle which had been redundant since that route closed in 1940. It operated in this form for another ten years but in 1966 the Beeching cuts were at their height and two lines from Lancaster to Morecambe were deemed one more than necessary. Operational convenience (in particular the need to keep the LNWR station on the WCML route open and the difficulty of accessing the MR branch route from it) won out over electrical infrastructure that was not only sixty years old but sixty miles remote from the nearest ac electrified route (in Manchester), so it was the LNWR route to Morecambe which remained open. Things might have been different if the extension of WCML electrification through Lancaster had been authorised sooner than the actual date of 1970.
Other closed electrified routes include Elmers End to Sanderstead and the North Woolwich branch, parts of which have been reused for light rail systems (Tramlink and DLR) but parts of which are quietly rusting, and the LNWR Croxley Green and Rickmansworth branches. Parts of the Goblin are already wired but carry no electric trains, but lines which used to have electric passenger services and now have only diesel services are rare indeed. (Until you look away from guided services - London's once extensive trolleybus network is now entirely diesel-worked)
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Post by stapler on Apr 22, 2016 7:16:22 GMT
And of course the two spurs off the Chingford Line at Hall Farm Junction, both double track and electrified in 1959 but which never saw an electric train
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Post by brigham on Apr 22, 2016 16:27:02 GMT
The excuse for abandoning the Tyneside electrification was the usual 'worn-out infrastructure'. Nobody anticipated anything but further contraction of the system at the time.
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Post by stapler on Apr 22, 2016 16:41:49 GMT
Mods, considerable thread drift here!
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 22, 2016 18:56:57 GMT
Mods, considerable thread drift here! Quite. Whilst fascinating, lets stick to the D Trains. A passing staff member with more time may choose to split things off though.... ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 19:46:02 GMT
what would happen in the case no one wants/buy the new D trains?
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Post by Chris M on Apr 22, 2016 20:01:54 GMT
Vivarail (and/or their backers) would be out of pocket.
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Post by stapler on Apr 23, 2016 8:15:48 GMT
...but might be able to export them....
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Post by domh245 on Apr 23, 2016 9:17:18 GMT
Or sell them to heritage railways to operate commuter services (if viable)
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Post by John Tuthill on Apr 23, 2016 10:07:57 GMT
Or sell them to heritage railways to operate commuter services (if viable) Ironically on the BBC webpages there is an article about the resurgence of rural railways.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2016 19:56:04 GMT
I have been looking at the vivarail website and it would seem that the "D-Trains" are intended to replace Pacers and derivatives but someone else is refurb'ing Pacers.
It would be nice to see D-stock back on London tracks e.g. on LO but they seem underpowered.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on May 1, 2016 20:07:14 GMT
I have been looking at the vivarail website and it would seem that the "D-Trains" are intended to replace Pacers and derivatives but someone else is refurb'ing Pacers. It would be nice to see D-stock back on London tracks e.g. on LO but they seem underpowered. London Overground is moving away from diesel powered trains (currently just on the Barking-Gospel Oak line), hence the massive investment in electrification and new electric trains. You'll not see a D Train on LO tracks.
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Post by Chris M on May 1, 2016 20:23:21 GMT
I have been looking at the vivarail website and it would seem that the "D-Trains" are intended to replace Pacers and derivatives but someone else is refurb'ing Pacers. It would be nice to see D-stock back on London tracks e.g. on LO but they seem underpowered. London Overground is moving away from diesel powered trains (currently just on the Barking-Gospel Oak line), hence the massive investment in electrification and new electric trains. You'll not see a D Train on LO tracks. In normal service, no. I would though say that I can think of unlikelier charters than a D Train on the North London Line.
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Post by spsmiler on May 1, 2016 21:36:50 GMT
Would likely be of interest if seen on the Richmond or Wimbledon branches of the District Line, especially if during the D stock farewell tour!
Simon
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Post by Chris M on May 1, 2016 22:01:20 GMT
Yes a D stock and D train side-by-side at say Richmond would be an incredible photo for the future history books!
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Post by phil on May 5, 2016 7:42:01 GMT
I have been looking at the vivarail website and it would seem that the "D-Trains" are intended to replace Pacers and derivatives but someone else is refurb'ing Pacers. It would be nice to see D-stock back on London tracks e.g. on LO but they seem underpowered. People forget that the word 'Pacer' covers at least three different classes of unit. IIRC some - but certainly not all of the 'Pacer' units types can be refurbished to meet the forthcoming accessibility regulations - the refurbished unit seen a few months ago being very much a "this is what we could (not will) do response from the leasing company". That unit is currently out and stakeholder responses are being gathered. The existence of this single 'demonstrator' does not automatically mean that (i) the owners of suitable 'Pacer' units will go down this path, nor (ii) that the franchise holders will wish to employ such vehicles given the political and user hostility to them. The D-Train concept itself is sound in principle, but as with the Pacer refurbishment, making a judgement on a single unit is a tad unwise. I'm sure that both the company behind the idea and any potential users will be paying close attention to the details with the units power ratings being an important consideration. Neither want any bad publicity to make the job of selling the trains to the public even harder than it already is (given the tendancy for people to listen to newspaper nonsense, rather than what profestional engineers / transport system specialists have to say in the matter.
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Post by decaded on May 28, 2016 0:47:29 GMT
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Post by crusty54 on May 28, 2016 5:08:22 GMT
Looks and sounds good.
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Post by antharro on May 28, 2016 15:57:50 GMT
Nice to hear that classic D-stock sound will exist for a few more years yet!
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Post by revupminster on May 29, 2016 5:46:38 GMT
I am sure these trains will end up on the West Country branches except for Paignton- Exmouth where there is main line running involved. (Paignton to Exeter). None of the local lines have been promised new trains, only more 150/2 and 158 to replace the 150/1, 143, and 153. Paignton-Exmouth is to have a 30 minute service but not enough stock. More trains to Honiton, reinstate Okehampton. Torquay is getting another station, Exeter another one as well as the two new ones already opened. All the seaside towns are becoming commuter towns for Exeter where the jobs are.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2016 21:43:12 GMT
One video shows a driving motor car on its own, I wonder how they managed to fit the compressors on board, given that the diesel engines take up a lot of space underfloor?? On the Tube, the D stock had its compressors mounted under the trailer car on the 3 car unit.
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 30, 2016 3:27:59 GMT
One video shows a driving motor car on its own, I wonder how they managed to fit the compressors on board, given that the diesel engines take up a lot of space underfloor?? On the Tube, the D stock had its compressors mounted under the trailer car on the 3 car unit. The small compressor is fitted to the engine via a belt, in the same way as an alternator/water pump are fitted to road vehicles - and takes up little room. The device to replace the MAs is fitted in the same way. The LU compressors, MAs, fan MAs and PCM camshaft equipment are all removed.
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